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Old 05-27-2020, 05:32 PM   #1921
Icky Thump
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Re: Swede emotion

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Netflix killed all the jobs at video stores. Craigslist killed all the newspaper jobs funded by classifieds. Apple is killing the camera industry. Microsoft killed typewriters.
Good.

I can catch up on series I missed by just clicking. For a movie, I just click. I can watch in my basement, on a train, on a plane, on an exercise bike. I don’t have to drive, wait at a store, come back 4 times if they don’t have it.

On this little break, I watched every Twilight Zone and am about to finish the Office.

What’s really sad is all them blacksmiths got put out of work by those dang horseless carriages.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:47 AM   #1922
Hank Chinaski
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Re: Swede emotion

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Originally Posted by Icky Thump View Post
Good.

I can catch up on series I missed by just clicking. For a movie, I just click. I can watch in my basement, on a train, on a plane, on an exercise bike. I don’t have to drive, wait at a store, come back 4 times if they don’t have it.

On this little break, I watched every Twilight Zone and am about to finish the Office.

What’s really sad is all them blacksmiths got put out of work by those dang horseless carriages.
Maybe, but watching porn on video I bet you never soiled your TV screen. #thosewerethedays
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:55 AM   #1923
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Re: Swede emotion

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You are confusing consumer benefit in the broad sense with monetary profits. You get a lot of the former. You only pay taxes on the latter. You don't pay any taxes for all of the value you get from your iPhone, for example.
The value of the iPhone in labor cost elimination is XXXXXXXXX. The value of the iPhone as a media device on which is listening to workout mixes and watch movies is XXX.

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I don't know what you mean by high and low, but I am talking proportionately. Tech companies tend to have very high fixed costs relatively to marginal costs for additional customers. It costs Facebook nothing to onboard an additional user, but they had to build a big infrastructure to offer that person its services.
The delta between FB's fixed and marginal costs appears unusually large because the marginal cost is so exceptionally low. Its costs of operation versus, say, Citibank, or Johnson & Johnson, is actually quite low.

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Uber's app doesn't cost nothing to produce. It has to spend a ton to be able to offer its services.
See my previous comment.

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They absolutely do. If United has a flight from Philadelphia to Houston, what's the marginal cost to it of filling another seat on the plane.
Think flights, not seats.

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I agree -- it's hard for me to tell what you're talking about sometimes.
This is an "eating the elephant" sort of discussion that should really be addressed on a company by company basis.

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Great example. The prior barrier to entry was regulatory. The only reason taxi medallions were worth so much is that they block entry. And driving a taxi is a shitty job! If the government wanted to, it could require a similar license to drive for Uber, and set minimum fares. Uber didn't directly destroy anything -- it just created a much more efficient way to connect taxis and rides, and then people realized how shitty the regulated taxi industry was in most places. Many more people are driving for Uber now than were driving taxis before. Isn't that a good thing? I can get an Uber from my house. Getting a taxi was no sure bet. Isn't that a good thing?
It is. And I am actually in favor of removing "license leveraging schemes" of all kinds. (I think our own licenses, as well as those of CPAs, investment advisors, and many others, should be open to laymen [if you can pass the test, you get a license, regardless of whether you went to school or through training]).

But perhaps the taxi example is a poor one. Perhaps the better example are administrative staff. They're replaced by tech in droves.

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So you're happy when government collects taxes on you indirectly through a private party, but not when it collects from you. OK. Doesn't make sense to me, but OK.
Yes. Because the creation of a new tax, like a new agency, means it never goes away. I'd rather that permanent fixture by applied to someone else.

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Do you think technological innovation is, on balance, good for society? If so, why would you want less of it?
Most of it, yes. But is considering how disruption can be achieved more smoothly a bad idea?

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A business that fails because it cannot compete is not an externality.
I agreed with that. I said a worker put out of a job because of new tech is an externality. If Buyer X stops buying from Seller X and instead starts buying tech from Seller Y, and as a result of this, Seller X's employees are terminated, those job losses are externalities.

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I wouldn't have thought you'd be the person to have Old Left economic views about this, but OK. You want to go to the Google search bar and pay huge tax to run a search? Who thinks that's a good idea? Every using the service now would have to pay a tax to get what they get now for free?
I would rather trade dollars than privacy.

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If you care, you can use a browser without the cookies. It's not rocket science. Most people accept the cookies because they enable a lot of value-creating stuff. Do you abstain from e-commerce?
I do. I run various blockers. If I have to allow cookies to buy something, I'll suspend them momentarily and then afterward immediately turn them on again.

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Many people talk big about how much they care about privacy, but don't actually act accordingly when presented with real-world choices.
I have maybe four apps on my phone, and the settling are all blocked to thwart (as much as I can do so) all acquisition of information. Almost every social media account is set up with a one-off email which contains no contacts. And just to be safe, I refuse to allow access to email contacts.

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Let's change the law so that richer people pay more taxes than less rich people.
This is where the rubber meets the road. No one will support punitive taxation (Eisenhower level rates) on tech-titan level wealthy people. And even if they did, it would be a pittance versus the cost of the safety net expansion needed. So what happens? The oncologist pulling down $350k gets a fat tax increase.

The cost is always carried by the affluent, but not crazy rich.

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That farmer is almost certainly getting subsidized in a huge way by people who live in blue, urban states. Read Cadillac Desert about how we have paid huge amounts to supply Western agriculture with water. That farmer drives on a federally funded highway to his federally insured bank to cash his farm-subsidy checks for not using his federally-funded water. And the "subsidy" you care about is that he's not using a smart phone?
I wasn't discussing whether the farmer received a benefit from a blue state. I was discussing whether he benefited from tech.

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So Wal-Mart is "tech" too, or are you inching closer to agreeing that the problems you are talking about aren't specific to today's tech industry?
To talk tech is wind up talking monopoly. I plead guilty to have broadened the discussion too far.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:38 PM   #1924
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George Floyd

He was suspected of writing a bad check. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fo...ody-2020-05-26

The video speaks for itself, quite horrifically. The only argument is whether it was intentional or negligent/reckless homicide.

But an important and overlooked question is, why are police using deadly physical force in response to a suspected forgery? Why four cops responding to a bad check allegation?

It's clearly racists who think they can treat black people like garbage. But it's also a very fucked up law enforcement system that has no fucking clue about the concept of proportional response. The guy was sitting on his car when they arrived. Take down his info, find out of the check is a forgery, and if it is, then arrest him. Why freak out and immediately seek to take him into custody? It's a fucking minor crime, probably even a summary offense. Reply in the limited manner this limited alleged crime requires.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:59 PM   #1925
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Re: George Floyd

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
He was suspected of writing a bad check. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fo...ody-2020-05-26

The video speaks for itself, quite horrifically. The only argument is whether it was intentional or negligent/reckless homicide.

But an important and overlooked question is, why are police using deadly physical force in response to a suspected forgery? Why four cops responding to a bad check allegation?

It's clearly racists who think they can treat black people like garbage. But it's also a very fucked up law enforcement system that has no fucking clue about the concept of proportional response. The guy was sitting on his car when they arrived. Take down his info, find out of the check is a forgery, and if it is, then arrest him. Why freak out and immediately seek to take him into custody? It's a fucking minor crime, probably even a summary offense. Reply in the limited manner this limited alleged crime requires.
The whole thing is horrifying. It makes absolutely no sense, for the reasons you mention. What could have possibly triggered this type of overwhelmingly disproportionate response? How could the other officers think it was a good idea to do nothing? Especially when you are being filmed. Even if you are a power-mad violent racist, how do you not realize this is going to look bad when the video goes viral? I don’t know if this is out there yet, but the person who filmed the incident (and was saying things like his nose is bleeding and I think he needs CPR) is a 17 year old girl. Just fucking horrible.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:44 PM   #1926
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Re: Swede emotion

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The value of the iPhone in labor cost elimination is XXXXXXXXX. The value of the iPhone as a media device on which is listening to workout mixes and watch movies is XXX.
I have no idea what you mean by value. You buy an iPhone because it is more valuable to you than the money you give Apple for it. Are you buying the phone to eliminate labor costs?

Quote:
The delta between FB's fixed and marginal costs appears unusually large because the marginal cost is so exceptionally low. Its costs of operation versus, say, Citibank, or Johnson & Johnson, is actually quite low.

See my previous comment.

Think flights, not seats.
You were complaining about the low prices of many tech goods (though not iPhones). My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that companies tend to price their goods based on marginal cost. Because it costs Facebook about nothing to serve a marginal user, it can price as it does. As to airlines (or hotels, for that matter), it costs a lot to build the things, but the marginal cost to the supplier of selling that additional seat on the plane or that suite for the night is super low, and that's how they price.

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This is an "eating the elephant" sort of discussion that should really be addressed on a company by company basis.
If you could say something that makes sense about just one tech company, we could go from there and try to find a second.

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It is. And I am actually in favor of removing "license leveraging schemes" of all kinds. (I think our own licenses, as well as those of CPAs, investment advisors, and many others, should be open to laymen [if you can pass the test, you get a license, regardless of whether you went to school or through training]).

But perhaps the taxi example is a poor one. Perhaps the better example are administrative staff. They're replaced by tech in droves.
So your complaint about Uber is not that it's hard on taxi medallion owners, but that it has been terrible for the back-office staff of the taxi companies? Really? Didn't you just tell me how few buggy-whip makers there were?

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Yes. Because the creation of a new tax, like a new agency, means it never goes away. I'd rather that permanent fixture by applied to someone else.
If it never goes away, the indirect tax you pay never goes away. I fail to see how you're any better off if you're charged a tax through tech companies.

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I agreed with that. I said a worker put out of a job because of new tech is an externality. If Buyer X stops buying from Seller X and instead starts buying tech from Seller Y, and as a result of this, Seller X's employees are terminated, those job losses are externalities.
No, that's just wrong. An "externality" is a cost or benefit "external" to the market, and so not factored into the market price. Seller X's employees lose their jobs because the market has decided that their market price is zero.

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I would rather trade dollars than privacy.
I would rather there were bookstores all over the place, but I am stuck with the distribution of resources that reflects what my neighbors want, and so are you.

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This is where the rubber meets the road. No one will support punitive taxation (Eisenhower level rates) on tech-titan level wealthy people. And even if they did, it would be a pittance versus the cost of the safety net expansion needed. So what happens? The oncologist pulling down $350k gets a fat tax increase.

The cost is always carried by the affluent, but not crazy rich.
Whenever we have a conversation about what should be, you avoid questions by cynically observing that change is impossible.

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I wasn't discussing whether the farmer received a benefit from a blue state. I was discussing whether he benefited from tech.
Yes, that was exactly my point. If you want to find a single person in the country most likely to have benefited from government subsidies, it is a farmer in a Western red state. And yet you ignore all that to make your hypothetical farmer the victim of government. Honestly, it's amazing. The question is why you think it's so awful that this farmer's taxes might help people like taxi company back-office workers, but don't mind that those workers' taxes have been paying to water his crops. If you want to be cynical about it, which I know you like, cross-subsidy is all over the place when you look for it, so why let that be the reason to stop anything?
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:45 PM   #1927
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Re: George Floyd

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The whole thing is horrifying. It makes absolutely no sense, for the reasons you mention. What could have possibly triggered this type of overwhelmingly disproportionate response? How could the other officers think it was a good idea to do nothing? Especially when you are being filmed. Even if you are a power-mad violent racist, how do you not realize this is going to look bad when the video goes viral? I don’t know if this is out there yet, but the person who filmed the incident (and was saying things like his nose is bleeding and I think he needs CPR) is a 17 year old girl. Just fucking horrible.
I'm looking forward to the riots in 18 months when an arbitrator rules that they get their jobs back, with back pay.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:03 PM   #1928
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Re: George Floyd

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I'm looking forward to the riots in 18 months when an arbitrator rules that they get their jobs back, with back pay.
Do you say that because the mayor does not have the ability to summarily fire officers, or that he did not have grounds for doing so here? Genuine question.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:06 PM   #1929
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Re: George Floyd

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I'm looking forward to the riots in 18 months when an arbitrator rules that they get their jobs back, with back pay.
I see no way these guys avoid jail. This isn't Ferguson, where there was a weak defense that the officer felt threatened. This was more like that other case (it seems the cops kill a black person for no good reason what -- five, ten times a year now?) where the cop shot the guy in the back in South Carolina, and was convicted of murder.

The Garner case, to which this will be compared, is also significantly different. Garner was held down in a manner that was at least arguably (weak, but impossible to discount out of hand) consistent with typical efforts to subdue a person. This guy was strangled to death by a cop's knee on his throat while saying "I can't breath" over and over. I'm no cop, but I kind of - just a little bit - doubt that "knee on neck" is a prescribed form of subduing a suspect.

"If I hadn't choked him with my knee he may have accessed his pocket and, uh, pulled out...

another bad check!"
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Old 05-28-2020, 04:25 PM   #1930
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Re: George Floyd

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I see no way these guys avoid jail. This isn't Ferguson, where there was a weak defense that the officer felt threatened. This was more like that other case (it seems the cops kill a black person for no good reason what -- five, ten times a year now?) where the cop shot the guy in the back in South Carolina, and was convicted of murder.

The Garner case, to which this will be compared, is also significantly different. Garner was held down in a manner that was at least arguably (weak, but impossible to discount out of hand) consistent with typical efforts to subdue a person. This guy was strangled to death by a cop's knee on his throat while saying "I can't breath" over and over. I'm no cop, but I kind of - just a little bit - doubt that "knee on neck" is a prescribed form of subduing a suspect.

"If I hadn't choked him with my knee he may have accessed his pocket and, uh, pulled out...

another bad check!"
Philando Castile was school lunch worker with a permit to carry and we couldn’t get a conviction.

And Mike Freeman, the county prosecutor, is a coward.

There will be riots again tonight. There will likely be riots again when Freeman announces charges less that first degree murder (even though he will probably be right). Not feeling at all hopeful right now.

Which is odd because I did when I visited the peaceful protest at the intersection this morning.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:53 PM   #1931
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Re: George Floyd

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Do you say that because the mayor does not have the ability to summarily fire officers, or that he did not have grounds for doing so here? Genuine question.
Don't know anything about the specifics, but in many cities the police unions have bargained for ridiculous protections that essentially makes it impossible to fire them. Certainly hope in this instance that's not the case.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:55 PM   #1932
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

So good.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:23 PM   #1933
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Re: George Floyd

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Philando Castile was school lunch worker with a permit to carry and we couldn’t get a conviction.

And Mike Freeman, the county prosecutor, is a coward.

There will be riots again tonight. There will likely be riots again when Freeman announces charges less that first degree murder (even though he will probably be right). Not feeling at all hopeful right now.

Which is odd because I did when I visited the peaceful protest at the intersection this morning.
You may want to get out of town. They charge these guys with bullshit, you will see that city get turned to absolute ashes.
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:56 PM   #1934
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Re: George Floyd

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Don't know anything about the specifics, but in many cities the police unions have bargained for ridiculous protections that essentially makes it impossible to fire them. Certainly hope in this instance that's not the case.
O.K., I have to admit I had the same reaction as you when the mayor fired them, and for the same reason (police unions): “Can he even do that?”
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:59 PM   #1935
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Re: George Floyd

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Philando Castile was school lunch worker with a permit to carry and we couldn’t get a conviction.

And Mike Freeman, the county prosecutor, is a coward.

There will be riots again tonight. There will likely be riots again when Freeman announces charges less that first degree murder (even though he will probably be right). Not feeling at all hopeful right now.

Which is odd because I did when I visited the peaceful protest at the intersection this morning.
I have no idea what will happen, and I am beyond being able to be surprised and disappointed at this point. But Freeman is a political animal, and I think people will be in his ear saying, “You don’t want Minneapolis burning because you were afraid to do the obvious thing.”
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