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Old 05-15-2017, 04:07 PM   #181
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Yeah, here's the thing. I like to think I'm pure, perfect and golden, the ideal of a post-imperialist, post-patriarchal, post-post- white dude. But that's really bullshit. I can mansplain with the worst of them if I'm not careful. It's not just some passive bit of privilege we "possess", it is our own original sin that causes us to just keep sinning.

Then, of course, you get to Sebby, who just wallows in that shit. He always wants to burn stuff down, then someone says "Burn down the patriarchy" and suddenly he's grabbing his hose.
You misunderstand. I just can't abide moralizing.

By the way, your variant of the above is, "Burn down the patriarchy! Fairness and empathy for all! But don't you dare touch the neoliberal economic policies that keep the status quo from which I am benefiting!"

We're all full of shit.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:25 PM   #182
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Is it not possible to recognize that different people enjoy different privileges without arbitrarily constructing a rigid hierarchy (or ladder) of the same?
But then what are you going to pull up?
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:57 PM   #183
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I just think this whole privilege recognition trend is a soft-headed endeavor. It's arbitrary laddering of people.

We all know life is not fair. Rupert Murdoch has a much easier existence than I do. In this regard, he's privileged above me. The plastic surgeon down the street is also privileged above me. I'm privileged above the garbage collector, my kid's teacher, etc. Who cares?

But let's put money aside. Let's talk freedom of speech. I'm licensed. If I do or say certain things, I can be sanctioned in ways the guy who owns the nearby flooring business cannot. Is he more privileged than me?

How about athletic ability. I can't dunk, or hit a fairway wood to save my ass. Are those who can more privileged than me? Magnus Carlson would kill me at chess! Privileged SOB...

In terms of intelligence, I'd like to be able to count cards, or do those equations in my head the way those kids who get jobs at Google can... Should they be required to empathize with me if I demand they recognize their privilege?

I'm not unhappy with my appearance. Do I have an obligation to understand the trials of those who are unhappy with theirs?

I've been told it's quite fine, but I mean... what man wouldn't want it a little bit bigger? (if you've met this man, stick with him.)

A Cuban buddy of mine can swing dance like he was born with the skill. I veer between looking like I'm rocking the "White Man's Overbite" to "Is my partner having a seizure?"

The metrics for privilege are too arbitrary for me to take it seriously except in this very obvious exception: If you're white, you've generally got advantages over other people due to the vestiges of racism and xenophobia in this country.
This is the height of intentional ignorance. And it makes you look dumber than you actually are.

If you are going to compare shit that is unfair that absolutely everyone experiences with the type of privilege that is built into our educational, law enforcement, and political institutions, that prevails in almost every single business environment, that shapes our definitions of beauty and sets the standard for what is normal then you are being a dick on purpose.

Stop being a dick.

TM
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:50 PM   #184
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
People want to discuss racial and patriarchal privilege. They don't want to get into other immutable issues like appearance, intelligence, physical abilities.
I hear people talking about appearance, intelligence and physical abilities all the time, and I don't hear anyone saying, "That may be, but let's discuss racial and patriarchal privilege." Maybe people don't want to have a conversation about racial and patriarchal privilege (fun as that sounds) hijacked and rebooted into a conversation about something else?

If I said, People want to talk about cars, but they don't want to get into mass transit, which is more likely: (a) when other people are talking about their cars they get tired of me explaining which buses I take in my commute, or (b) there is widespread public opposition to mass transit? I'm going with (a).

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It's all too arbitrary.
Not sure what you mean by that. People are using the words to try to define real, concrete things that they see and experience in the actual word, but you seem to understand them as talking about conceptual categories. Maybe what they're saying isn't concrete or real to you?
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Old 05-15-2017, 06:33 PM   #185
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
You misunderstand. I just can't abide moralizing.

By the way, your variant of the above is, "Burn down the patriarchy! Fairness and empathy for all! But don't you dare touch the neoliberal economic policies that keep the status quo from which I am benefiting!"

We're all full of shit.
Privileged- a black woman friend posted on FB about how she saw a 70 y.o. Black woman freeze out a white woman in their health club. She then recounted her discussion after the white woman left. A white woman commented on FB taking issue with the older black woman's actions. Then FB blew up with lots of people yelling at the white woman, because, you know, FB.

But the part I liked was this one white guy who wrote to attack the white woman, and said "I know I benefit from white privilege so I didn't take a really good job" ( you know the executive jobs all white people are offered) instead he took a working class job. The guy was so fucked up that he couldn't see if in fact he could get an executive job he could use it to advance people of color, women, etc.

So of course there is a lot of nonsense associated with the idea.

On the other hand, the woman with the FB does storytelling. I pitched a story how I took 3 young black men under my wing and helped them and in the process learned to see prejudice from their viewpoint, and it changed me and caused me to start confronting it. And she liked the story and said "this is about white privilege." Like I was blind to a lot of stuff until looking at it from another view. And she was right. It is a thing, sometimes misused but a real thing.
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:00 PM   #186
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I hear people talking about appearance, intelligence and physical abilities all the time, and I don't hear anyone saying, "That may be, but let's discuss racial and patriarchal privilege." Maybe people don't want to have a conversation about racial and patriarchal privilege (fun as that sounds) hijacked and rebooted into a conversation about something else?

If I said, People want to talk about cars, but they don't want to get into mass transit, which is more likely: (a) when other people are talking about their cars they get tired of me explaining which buses I take in my commute, or (b) there is widespread public opposition to mass transit? I'm going with (a).



Not sure what you mean by that. People are using the words to try to define real, concrete things that they see and experience in the actual word, but you seem to understand them as talking about conceptual categories. Maybe what they're saying isn't concrete or real to you?
1. This intentional small-ball is too transparent.

2. I'm kind of insulted by the last paragraph. You barely even tried to hide the hook.
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:05 PM   #187
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Privileged- a black woman friend posted on FB about how she saw a 70 y.o. Black woman freeze out a white woman in their health club. She then recounted her discussion after the white woman left. A white woman commented on FB taking issue with the older black woman's actions. Then FB blew up with lots of people yelling at the white woman, because, you know, FB.

But the part I liked was this one white guy who wrote to attack the white woman, and said "I know I benefit from white privilege so I didn't take a really good job" ( you know the executive jobs all white people are offered) instead he took a working class job. The guy was so fucked up that he couldn't see if in fact he could get an executive job he could use it to advance people of color, women, etc.

So of course there is a lot of nonsense associated with the idea.

On the other hand, the woman with the FB does storytelling. I pitched a story how I took 3 young black men under my wing and helped them and in the process learned to see prejudice from their viewpoint, and it changed me and caused me to start confronting it. And she liked the story and said "this is about white privilege." Like I was blind to a lot of stuff until looking at it from another view. And she was right. It is a thing.
Privilege is too diffuse a concept. Dissected, it applies everywhere, in endless permutations, and therefore might as well apply nowhere.

It also stupidly expands on and dilutes real issues: Racism, and Sexism. They're quite real. Whether some white guy like me "doesn't get" his privilege or doesn't care doesn't matter. Nor does it change my disgust at sexism and racism.

I'm on the right team. Been there from the start. Just don't point your finger at me and tell me I've a duty to apologize or empathize simply because of a biological quirk of my birth.

I'm not expanding on it here, but I've personally worked against private prisons. Empathy's for the "build awareness" crowd. Talk and not much more.
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:11 PM   #188
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
1. This intentional small-ball is too transparent.
Sadly, I don't know what you mean.

Quote:
2. I'm kind of insulted by the last paragraph. You barely even tried to hide the hook.
I wasn't trying to hide anything. TM told you to stop being a dick -- is that the tack I should have taken?
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:17 PM   #189
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Privilege is too diffuse a concept. Dissected, it applies everywhere, in endless permutations, and therefore might as well apply nowhere.

It also stupidly expands on and dilutes real issues: Racism, and Sexism. They're quite real. Whether some white guy like me "doesn't get" his privilege or doesn't care doesn't matter. Nor does it change my disgust at sexism and racism.

I'm on the right team. Been there from the start. Just don't point your finger at me and tell me I've a duty to apologize or empathize simply because of a biological quirk of my birth.

I'm not expanding on it here, but I've personally worked against private prisons. Empathy's for the "build awareness" crowd. Talk and not much more.
it is a hard thing to talk about. You have white people saying all white people (besides them) are bad. Of course that is nonsense, but look at it as what you can do differently, or at least see in your life, that occurs due to your color. I don't think anyone expects you are going around doing overtly racist acts, but introspection is not a bad thing.
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Old 05-15-2017, 11:11 PM   #190
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Dissected, it applies everywhere, in endless permutations, and therefore might as well apply nowhere.
This is dumb. A thing can be everywhere to varying degrees and magnitudes and still matter when the degrees and magnitudes are nontrivial. Flooding. Earthquakes. You get the idea of ubiquity v magnitude.

Quote:
It also stupidly expands on and dilutes real issues: Racism, and Sexism.
It's one manifestation of those issues. How can pointing it out possibly expand (wtf does that even mean?) or dilute awareness of these issues?

Quote:
They're quite real. Whether some white guy like me "doesn't get" his privilege or doesn't care doesn't matter. Nor does it change my disgust at sexism and racism.
If you can't admit that you get an advantage from not facing these issues, you have no real disgust.

Quote:
I'm on the right team. Been there from the start. Just don't point your finger at me and tell me I've a duty to apologize or empathize simply because of a biological quirk of my birth.
You won't even admit to the most basic of advantages, much less that you owe empathy to others. You aren't on the right team.

Quote:
I'm not expanding on it here, but I've personally worked against private prisons. Empathy's for the "build awareness" crowd. Talk and not much more.
Yeah, you think "woke enough but no more" is tenable. It's not.
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:01 AM   #191
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
You have white people saying all white people (besides them) are bad.
It's true that there are some people out there who say stupid stuff, but isn't this a little like saying there's no point in talking about music because some people like Vanilla Ice. Why get hung up on the stupid stuff that some people are saying?
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:32 AM   #192
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It's true that there are some people out there who say stupid stuff, but isn't this a little like saying there's no point in talking about music because some people like Vanilla Ice. Why get hung up on the stupid stuff that some people are saying?
That was my point.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:54 AM   #193
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Ty: I'm sure it was just locker room talk, but why would a sitting president reveal classified intel to the Russians? Even if doing so does not, for example, out the agents who obtained the intel or otherwise compromise intelligence-sharing agreements we have, are we not even a little worried about the complete lack of discretion in our commander in chief?

Sebastian: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING!!!!! More earnest hand-wringing by the hysterical media. The media are like that chick you knew in college who prattled on about the patriarchy, and wondered why she never got laid.

Thurgreed: This is most ridiculous load of bovine crap ever to be typed in any medium ever.

Me: Here's some weird old falsetto funk. L.A. Carnival with "Color." The Daily Dose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu70UjJGS5k
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:58 PM   #194
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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That was my point.
Well done, then.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:12 PM   #195
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Re: Imagine

Imagine sitting around a room in DC with a few friends, maybe three or four drinks in, joking around, and someone says, hey, think of this. What could Trump do to make it worse? What could we do to really screw this up?!

I know, I know, how about this? Fire the FBI director, have all your staff lie about it having nothing to do with the Russia investigation, and then just come out and say, I did it, he was investigating me, fuck you all!!

And everyone laughs.

Someone says, I know, I know, even worse!! Meet with the Russians, and given them top secret information!!!

Laughter.

And let's make it Israel's top secret information.

Hillaryti ensues.

And hey, then let's have him go to Saudi Arabia and lecture people on Islam?!!

Oh, shit, man. Make it stop.
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