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Old 12-07-2017, 06:53 PM   #3271
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Hit over the head by WHOM? Kelly Ann? The magical Huckabees? Trump? Fuck outta here.
If we've learned anything over the last few decades, it's that when Democrats get hit over the head by stupid attacks pushed by mendacious conservatives and picked up by a credulous media eager to give both sides to the next question of when a Democrat last beat his wife, the thing to do is to surrender meekly and hope that they won't do it again. That way, you get to kick the football!

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Old 12-07-2017, 06:56 PM   #3272
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Two, when you look at the tweet Axelrod sent five minutes earlier, it's pretty clear that he's not calling Romney a Nazi, but comparing Romney's 7-1 spending advantage in the GOP primary in Illinois to the German army's Blitzkreig.
The implication being that if you really think Axelrod was calling Mitt a Nazi, you also should be thinking that he was comparing all the other candidates in the Republican primary to the hapless European neighbors of Germany who were steamrolled by the Wehrmacht, and in that case doesn't he really deserve points for likening most Republicans to the Nazis' victims?
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:07 PM   #3273
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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If we've learned anything over the last few decades, it's that when Democrats get hit over the head by stupid attacks pushed by mendacious conservatives and picked up by a credulous media eager to give both sides to the next question of when a Democrat last beat his wife, the thing to do is to surrender meekly and hope that they won't do it again.
It really is a problem. The only guy I can think of who actually had some courage to ignore how shit always works in politics in a way that was refreshing and different when it came to these ridiculous attacks was Anthony Weiner. And it turns out the reason why he had such big balls was that he just wanted everyone to look at his balls.

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Old 12-07-2017, 08:58 PM   #3274
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I think both you and Adder are overstating the damage being done by Franken maintaining office while there is a fucking investigation going on. Who is he becoming a political liability to?

My whole point is I don't think Franken's actions require clearing him out and I don't think he's creating collateral damage that can't be managed with even a little bit of thought. Requiring his head is an overreaction.
This may be right; we will never know what the consequences would be of Franken remaining in office. But I think we are discounting the possibility that pressuring him to resign was a calculated, possibly even cynical, attempt to minimize the possibility that the Democrats would lose the Senate seat in the long term. I would not be surprised if some of the private conversations were along the lines of: Listen Al, we don't think it is fair to ask you to resign, but you know politics. We need to think about the big picture, not just you. We love you, but this is a contested seat every election, and you created a situation that might tip the balance toward the Republicans, so you need to sacrifice your Senate seat for the cause of keeping the seat Democrat in the long term.

I have no idea whether this is correct, or whether my hypothesized strategy is smart or effective. But I am not convinced that pressuring him to resign was simply an act of liberal self-flagellation.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:59 PM   #3275
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Again, it's not a punishment.

Assuming for the sake of arguments these words actually mean anything, which they don't actually, how? What's the politically viable way to both take accusations seriously and not be repeatedly hammered over the head with your inaction on them, much less continue to be subjected to additional allegations?

Nobody's voice is essential, and believing someone's is leads to sending party money to a pedophile.
1. It’s absolutely punishment. Stop debating that.

2. The words are clear. Seventy percent of what’s wrong with politics and by extension policy is that all corrective measures are applied in an extreme fashion. Franken is accused of boorish behavior? Well, all men accused are the same, and all must hang! No one thinks. It’s a fucking mob, with shit for brains, happy to treat Franken like Moore.

You will never meet a zero tolerance zealot with a three digit IQ.

3. Franken was smart, rational, and could argue his positions quite effectively. In govt, that’s a fucking unicorn.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:11 PM   #3276
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I don't think Franken is going because of the acts he did, really, but instead because he was pissing into the political headwinds. He was becoming a political liability to a lot of other people. It wasn't fair, it was politics, and my hope is he does his penance and we move on. More than one pol in a similar situation has recovered and run for another office before, like Joe Biden with his speech (where he was pretty clearly guilty).

The thing is, this political headwind is clearing out a lot of real assholes. Originally it was mostly the reprobates at Fox, now it's all over. So yes, we should try to avoid the collateral damage. But let's keep clearing out the assholes, there's one in Alabama we need on the chopping block come Tuesday. And, frankly, there are a few I know in some law firms that need to discover judgment day.
Why is it that clearing out these assholes and doing so in a manner that thoughtfully distinguishes between the Moores and Frankens should be mutually exclusive propositions?

We can do both. We aren’t morons who must feed the mob’s bloodlust with unworthy sacrifices like Franken. The “they’re necessary collateral damage in a noble movement” is no argument at all. It’s enabling a pack of low rent Robespierres.

We should be better than what happened to Franken.
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:47 AM   #3277
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post

We should be better than what happened to Franken.
Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:20 AM   #3278
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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This may be right; we will never know what the consequences would be of Franken remaining in office. But I think we are discounting the possibility that pressuring him to resign was a calculated, possibly even cynical, attempt to minimize the possibility that the Democrats would lose the Senate seat in the long term. I would not be surprised if some of the private conversations were along the lines of: Listen Al, we don't think it is fair to ask you to resign, but you know politics. We need to think about the big picture, not just you. We love you, but this is a contested seat every election, and you created a situation that might tip the balance toward the Republicans, so you need to sacrifice your Senate seat for the cause of keeping the seat Democrat in the long term.

I have no idea whether this is correct, or whether my hypothesized strategy is smart or effective. But I am not convinced that pressuring him to resign was simply an act of liberal self-flagellation.
That's a much better argument. If I were Franken, based on the collective tendency towards short term memory of our electorate, I would tell whoever was coming at me to shove it.

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Old 12-08-2017, 11:28 AM   #3279
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We can do both. We aren’t morons who must feed the mob’s bloodlust with unworthy sacrifices like Franken.
I'm not sure the recent electoral past, or the composition of the current House and Senate, support this proposition.

I'm not convinced Franken won't hold on. The announcement of a future resignation is the kind of thing where there could be a call to reconsider, some further thought by a lot of people, possibly after the air clears a bit and we see what happens with Moore in particular or after the ethics committee weighs in a bit.

The really funny thing here is watching a bunch of Trumpsters defending Franken. If he does reverse course and hang in, he's going to be running with some interesting testimonials.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:31 AM   #3280
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.
I think this is why the pressure.

That pressure is felt all over the place, from NY, where Gillibrand desperately wants to pick up several congressional seats upstate, to Missouri, where the Republicans at this point traditionally blow their shot at a senate seat based on the sexual perversity of their candidates.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:31 AM   #3281
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.
While I see your point, I think this is incorrect. Anyone who is blurring those lines between Franken and Moore is squinting so hard their eyes may pop out. It's intentional because they want to justify voting for Moore (and I'm just using him as an example).

If we can't pick up people in close districts because they think, "Franken. Moore. Close enough. I'm going with the child molester." it's not because we didn't clear our ranks of the Frankens and convince them that we are morally superior. It's because those people could not be reached.

We need to stop being so fucking wishy washy. Every single Democrat who has a mic thrust in his or her face asked to discuss this should say, "The comparison of an alleged child molester to anyone else is irresponsible and I'm not going to dignify that game by playing. Franken is the subject of an investigation as he should be and appropriate steps will be taken once the investigation has concluded." Translation: Fuck outta my face with this bullshit.

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Old 12-08-2017, 11:34 AM   #3282
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.
Here the bigger thing: The Democrats are not going to win by being the non-pussy grabbing party.

Those social issues you think will win the day? They're losers.

The issues that will win the day are:

1. The GOP just fucked the middle class with a shitty tax bill;
2. Wages are still stagnating (see today's jobs report);
3. The GOP is defunding the ACA; and,
4. Inequality is accelerating under GOP policies.

The environment? Not going to win the Ds any new votes.
Trump's foreign policy insanity? Average voter doesn't care about or understand anything beyond US borders.

Pussy grabbing/pedophile in the Senate? That'll get some votes.
The GOP embracing alt-right psychos? That'll get some votes.
But not 1/10th of the votes #s 1-4 above will attract.

The Democrats need to attract the moderate swing voters and the people who pulled the lever for Trump thinking, "Eh, why not? He might be a magic ticket," and now have serious buyer's remorse.

The people exercised by the pussy-grabbing issue are already voting Democratic. Rather than preach to the converted, the Democrats should spend time and energy bringing back the voters who pulled the lever for Obama in '08 and then Trump in '16. Obviously, given they voted for two extremely different candidates on social issues, it all about $$$ (read: jobs and growth) to them.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:40 AM   #3283
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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TWe craft the message. We address the issues. We weather the storm when there is one. The appropriate response as a party to Franken's shit is: There is currently an investigation.
I know you've paid attention to how the media handles these things. We don't control that.

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The fact that you think the only thing to be done is for Franken to step down is the problem we are currently discussing.
As I said, the only way to stop the bleeding from the continued drip of allegations was for Al to step down. Repeatedly saying, "we'll handle that later" doesn't do it.

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And the fact that you think we "look no different from the GOP" over Franken or even Conyers is batshit crazy.
It's not. Believe it or not, people are capable of cynicism and reading "after the process is over" as "never."

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But the fact that you can't see past "resignation is required for any charge related to sexual impropriety" makes me wonder if you're losing your ability to reason in favor of proving to everyone how empathetic you are.
It's not required for any charge. The whole party was on board for an ethics investigation after the initial allegations. It was the repeated new allegations, and the expectation that they would continue, that made resignation necessary.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:42 AM   #3284
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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What's my fix? And my fix for what?
This

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Let me fix that for you:
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:46 AM   #3285
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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But I think we are discounting the possibility that pressuring him to resign was a calculated, possibly even cynical, attempt to minimize the possibility that the Democrats would lose the Senate seat in the long term.
Oh, that's absolutely a factor.

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I would not be surprised if some of the private conversations were along the lines of: Listen Al, we don't think it is fair to ask you to resign, but you know politics. We need to think about the big picture, not just you. We love you, but this is a contested seat every election, and you created a situation that might tip the balance toward the Republicans, so you need to sacrifice your Senate seat for the cause of keeping the seat Democrat in the long term.
According to Klobuchar (always eager to put her name in the middle of things), he met with her the day before the announcement. I'd be shocked if she didn't say pretty much that.
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