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Old 03-15-2019, 03:39 PM   #766
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I cannot state that "just about everyone" is racist any more than I can prove "everyone is racist" because there's no way to prove either.
You can't read, can you? I stopped using the word "racist." I asked you a question that didn't use the word. Without using the word "racist," just answer what I asked you: Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:58 PM   #767
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Preet Bharara interview:

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Bharara, like most informed observers, thinks it highly unlikely that the SDNY will indict Trump while he is still in office. Though there is nothing in the constitution or in law to stop the SDNY from charging Trump, Department of Justice guidelines bar sitting presidents from being prosecuted, and Bharara does not expect to see his former colleagues “going rogue” in that way.

But when Trump leaves office, all bets are off.

The culture of the SDNY is such that if they feel they have sufficient evidence they will definitely go after him when he leaves the White House. “Right is right, and no one’s above the law. That’s not just lip service – the SDNY is steeped in it. No one is above the law: I don’t care who you are, how much money you have, who your friends are.”
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:41 PM   #768
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
You can't read, can you? I stopped using the word "racist." I asked you a question that didn't use the word. Without using the word "racist," just answer what I asked you: Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.
I can’t say just about everyone is involved in systemic discrimination. There’s no way to make that leap. Everyone is a huge group. We could find a small percentage of everyone is responsible. We could find roughly half of everyone is responsible.

I’m avoiding using involved because that’s a broad term that could be used to assert everyone within the system is “involved” in discrimination simply because they deal with or work within the system. Using that measure, the entire population of the world from countries which deal with the US is involved in systemic discrimination.

I am comfortable stating that a significant portion of the US population is responsible for perpetuating systemic discrimination. I think a fair reading of available facts and data allows that. How significant? I don’t know. That’s the argument of degree I previously referenced.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:53 PM   #769
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I can’t say just about everyone is involved in systemic discrimination. There’s no way to make that leap. Everyone is a huge group. We could find a small percentage of everyone is responsible. We could find roughly half of everyone is responsible.

I’m avoiding using involved because that’s a broad term that could be used to assert everyone within the system is “involved” in discrimination simply because they deal with or work within the system. Using that measure, the entire population of the world from countries which deal with the US is involved in systemic discrimination.

I am comfortable staying that a significant portion of the US population is responsible for perpetuating systemic discrimination. I think a fair reading of available facts and data allows that. How significant? I don’t know. That’s the argument of degree I previously referenced.
So now you are that much closer to understanding. You asked how the broad definition of racism could be useful. Here's the answer. We live in a racist society. Pretty much everyone in that society, without regard to individual views and attitudes, is involved in some way in perpetuating that racism. The broad definition of "racist" captures this, at the cost of blurring distinctions between individual attitudes that you find really important. In particular, you think it's really important to distinguish between people who are consciously and intentionally bigoted, and everyone else.

I don't disagree that your distinction has some value, but I don't think it has as much value as you do. (Partly because the word "bigot" has the meaning you want for "racist.") And you don't seem to have any other word to use to capture that sense in which everyone is complicit.

I will say this: If everyone is a "racist" then calling someone a "racist" becomes tautological, not particularly descriptive. That supports an intuition that the narrower sense of the word is more useful. On the other hand, using "racist" to describe actions or things or institutions that fit the broader sense is quite valuable, because that stuff is all around us and there really isn't another good way to say that. So that is very descriptive. Of course, if one isn't really concerned at all with that sort of thing, one doesn't need a word for it. Eskimos had lots of words for snow, but none for structured derivatives, or so I've heard.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:40 PM   #770
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
So now you are that much closer to understanding. You asked how the broad definition of racism could be useful. Here's the answer. We live in a racist society. Pretty much everyone in that society, without regard to individual views and attitudes, is involved in some way in perpetuating that racism. The broad definition of "racist" captures this, at the cost of blurring distinctions between individual attitudes that you find really important. In particular, you think it's really important to distinguish between people who are consciously and intentionally bigoted, and everyone else.

I don't disagree that your distinction has some value, but I don't think it has as much value as you do. (Partly because the word "bigot" has the meaning you want for "racist.") And you don't seem to have any other word to use to capture that sense in which everyone is complicit.

I will say this: If everyone is a "racist" then calling someone a "racist" becomes tautological, not particularly descriptive. That supports an intuition that the narrower sense of the word is more useful. On the other hand, using "racist" to describe actions or things or institutions that fit the broader sense is quite valuable, because that stuff is all around us and there really isn't another good way to say that. So that is very descriptive. Of course, if one isn't really concerned at all with that sort of thing, one doesn't need a word for it. Eskimos had lots of words for snow, but none for structured derivatives, or so I've heard.
I don’t disagree the broad definition seems necessary. But I do not think it is the proper expression of what you’re describing. Systemic racism is a different animal than individual racism. You and I and everyone else in this country live within a racist system. That system is filled with structures which are designed to and in fact perpetuate racism. The same cannot be said of every person or just about every person living within that system. Each person must be assessed individually.

We can say, for example, the US justice system is a racist system. But we cannot extrapolate from there that all justice systems are racist. And that is comparing apples to apples. To extrapolate from the fact that the US justice system is racist, or even that numerous US institutions are racist, and therefore all or nearly all US citizens are racist is comparing apples and grains of sand. The system is not the individual any more than the individual is the system. (This is one of the axioms that has kept us from war with Iran, a country of diverse people with diverse views run by an indefensible system.)

I don’t think any fair person can or should label all or most of the citizens of a nation with a description that fits its institutions generally. And I also do not think it needs to be done. It’s quite enough, and effective, to state that a society is run by racist systems decent men would seek to fix. Shaming individuals as racists using a definition that only fits systems will not cure the apathy this device seeks to eradicate.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:53 PM   #771
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I don’t disagree the broad definition seems necessary. But I do not think it is the proper expression of what you’re describing. Systemic racism is a different animal than individual racism. You and I and everyone else in this country live within a racist system. That system is filled with structures which are designed to and in fact perpetuate racism. The same cannot be said of every person or just about every person living within that system. Each person must be assessed individually.

We can say, for example, the US justice system is a racist system. But we cannot extrapolate from there that all justice systems are racist. And that is comparing apples to apples. To extrapolate from the fact that the US justice system is racist, or even that numerous US institutions are racist, and therefore all or nearly all US citizens are racist is comparing apples and grains of sand. The system is not the individual any more than the individual is the system. (This is one of the axioms that has kept us from war with Iran, a country of diverse people with diverse views run by an indefensible system.)

I don’t think any fair person can or should label all or most of the citizens of a nation with a description that fits its institutions generally. And I also do not think it needs to be done. It’s quite enough, and effective, to state that a society is run by racist systems decent men would seek to fix. Shaming individuals as racists using a definition that only fits systems will not cure the apathy this device seeks to eradicate.
I don't think anyone said the point is to shame everyone, but if the utmost concern is to avoid making anyone uncomfortable, what you say makes total sense.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:19 PM   #772
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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I don't think anyone said the point is to shame everyone, but if the utmost concern is to avoid making anyone uncomfortable, what you say makes total sense.
Then why use the accusation on an individual level when it doesn’t fit?

The utmost concern is paring racism as effectively as possible. Using terms where they don’t fit and appear to used disingenuously is the opposite of effective.

It’s been argued Trump is largely a reaction to political correctness. I don’t agree, but if we assume I’m wrong and that’s right, why would one double down on using terms in a manner that invites such backlash where he could easily use accurate, factual statements which cannot be refuted to make his claims?
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:48 AM   #773
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Post not about racism

More, though not much, about Wilkie Farr's cheater - https://cornellsun.com/2019/03/13/go...ed-with-fraud/
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Old Today, 10:35 AM   #774
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Then why use the accusation on an individual level when it doesn’t fit?
Because it isn't an "accusation."
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Old Today, 12:05 PM   #775
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Then why use the accusation on an individual level when it doesn’t fit?
If you assume that the word means only what you say, then that question makes sense. For just a second, try to pretend that the word means what others have suggested, in which case your question is incoherent.
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