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Old 12-07-2017, 05:15 PM   #3256
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It's nice to think that we are somehow empowering Trump, but that's false. He was empowered by the people who voted for him last November, and he is enabled by Republicans on the Hill who don't want to stand up to him and who are happy to take what they can get in return. Your sentiments function as a sort of placebo lollypop that you can suck on for a little while to make yourself feel better. Once it's gone, Trump is just as "empowered".
Exactly.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:16 PM   #3257
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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There were a bunch of people on the left who acted like Mitt Romney was literally Hitler for the binders full of women thing. He managed to advance women without grabbing their asses and didn't get any credit for that. Cry me another river about Franken being held to an unreasonable standard. And it's so great that 3 weeks ago several Democrats decided that Bill Clinton probably should have resigned. When the GOP's "War on Women" is your major narrative, I don't think it's unfair to be held to a higher standard.

My description of the Conyers III situation was in no way misleading, and I was aware of the exact same facts you were. But how about we all agree to pick candidates that don't attempt to rape children, or sexually harass their staff, *or* get in violent domestic disputes? Is that too much to ask? Too high a standard?

I left the GOP and literally burned my voter registration card 4 months before the Access Hollywood tape came out, and gave it my all to try to defeat Trump in the primaries and at the convention (note that Cruz was not one of my exceptions from the garbage people of the GOP). I don't think you'll find me anywhere arguing that Trump and Moore are worthy of any public office.
Nothing but respect from here for leaving the Republican party, but they have been trending toward this bizarre ultra-nationalist, dogmatically fundamentalist (I won't call it Christian), xenophobic and bigoted worldview for a while.

Yes, calling Romney, the man who gave us Romneycare, a Nazi shows a fundamental misunderstanding of both Nazism and Romney. But it's really hard to tell who is the Monster and who Created the Monster in the Republican Party today, especially from the outside. And Romney had more than his share of complicity in the problems of the party today, he played hard to a lot of crazies along the way. Much like McCain, he knew what the fuck he was doing and did it anyways.

We Dems have our faults, as do Independents and every other variation of humans. There are predatory men among us, there are until-not-long-ago homophobes in our mist, there are Iraq-war-apologists lurking about, and, yes, there are even some overeager feminists sharpening the blade (come here, Sebby, I've got something for you). But, shit, there ain't anyone in the Democratic party I can think of whose anywhere near the clown car level the Rs have been at for some time now.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:17 PM   #3258
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Here's Axelrod making a directly Nazi comparison: https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/sta...46985970302976
Um. A pun is a direct Nazi comparison? And what does that have to do with binders full of women?

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See also : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ce695ca34d8f

It's a shame when you blow all of your "Republicans are Nazis" ammo at Mitt Romney, of all people.
Both of the included links are dead, so I can't see exactly what was said, but the text there says someone made a comment about Nikki Haley and someone else quoted Goebbels about lying (presumably the exceedly common quote). 1. Which of those is about Romney, and (2) how is the latter "Republicans are Nazis"?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:21 PM   #3259
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It's almost like we didn't just lose a "there's no difference between the parties" election.
It's almost like you don't understand that there was and is a huge difference between the parties. And if you think that booting Franken clears that up for the idiots who voted for Trump, you're delusional.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:26 PM   #3260
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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This is the problem. What do you mean how do we get anything done? Are you talking from a practical standpoint or a political one?
Both, although not having control of anything means most of what the Dems are actually trying to accomplish right now is political. How do they do what the need to do - which is mostly get their messaging out - when a big chunk of the attention paid to Dems each week is a new allegation against Al? How do they get media and voter attention on whatever when there's almost certainly ongoing embarrassment happening?

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Politically speaking, I'll say this: Fuck the right. I don't give a fuck of Huckabee et al says Moore should stay if Franken stays. Those assholes are going to justify keeping Moore no matter what the left decides is appropriate. If we can't determine that what Franken has done is nowhere near what Moore or Trump has done, then we're fucking doomed. Because (and listen closely), anyone who voted for Trump after hearing him talk about assaulting women and seeing victim after victim be ignored is not going to run back to the Democrats because we have proven moral superiority by kicking Franken out.
Agreed, but it's not a zero sum game of persuading one pool of voters, and the margins very much matter. Looking no different from the GOP, because we don't do anything about credible allegations of inappropriate behavior either, can absolutely be a factor in someone staying home or voting third party.

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If we can't get messaging out because Franken touched another butt 8 years ago, then let's just give up.
Okay then.

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doesn't deserve the proverbial death penalty
Seriously, stop this.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:27 PM   #3261
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We run around like our heads are on fire trying to be all things to all people. If Conyers was exposing himself and touching people while in office, boot his ass. No problem with that. But if we can't determine that what Franken did, while somewhere on the same spectrum of wrong, doesn't deserve the proverbial death penalty, then we need to rethink what our goals as a party are.


TM
I don't think Franken is going because of the acts he did, really, but instead because he was pissing into the political headwinds. He was becoming a political liability to a lot of other people. It wasn't fair, it was politics, and my hope is he does his penance and we move on. More than one pol in a similar situation has recovered and run for another office before, like Joe Biden with his speech (where he was pretty clearly guilty).

The thing is, this political headwind is clearing out a lot of real assholes. Originally it was mostly the reprobates at Fox, now it's all over. So yes, we should try to avoid the collateral damage. But let's keep clearing out the assholes, there's one in Alabama we need on the chopping block come Tuesday. And, frankly, there are a few I know in some law firms that need to discover judgment day.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:29 PM   #3262
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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What's the politically viable way to both take accusations seriously and not be repeatedly hammered over the head with your inaction on them, much less continue to be subjected to additional allegations?
Hit over the head by WHOM? Kelly Ann? The magical Huckabees? Trump? Fuck outta here. Weather the bullshit. Listen to the hammering from our party. Investigate the allegations. Figure something out that makes sense. Jesus Christ. Just because Moore should bow out and didn't doesn't mean that we can't make the argument because Franken is still in the Senate. Forcing him to resign doesn't achieve anything other than retaining a moral high ground that doesn't really exist.

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Nobody's voice is essential, and believing someone's is leads to sending party money to a pedophile.
This is pure, unadulterated garbage. It was Franken's questions that has Sessions in possible deep shit for perjury. There are absolutely essential voices. Franken was accomplishing shit. His voice has been vital. Figuring out how to handle the allegations against him sensibly before forming a chorus of people who want to push him out doesn't lead to funding pedophiles. The Democratic electorate wouldn't vote a known pedophile into office. You're being absolutely ridiculous.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:30 PM   #3263
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I think it would be fair to do what you propose. I would actually have been ok with Franken staying until after the Ethics hearing were completed. Heck, Farenthold is using as a defense that he was cleared by the bipartisan House Ethics.

The thing that pisses me off most about Trump is how his defense of Moore is based on "Well, he denied it!" It's total BS.
Agreed. And that refrain has been adopted straight down the line.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:39 PM   #3264
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I don't think Franken is going because of the acts he did, really, but instead because he was pissing into the political headwinds. He was becoming a political liability to a lot of other people. It wasn't fair, it was politics, and my hope is he does his penance and we move on. More than one pol in a similar situation has recovered and run for another office before, like Joe Biden with his speech (where he was pretty clearly guilty).

The thing is, this political headwind is clearing out a lot of real assholes. Originally it was mostly the reprobates at Fox, now it's all over. So yes, we should try to avoid the collateral damage. But let's keep clearing out the assholes, there's one in Alabama we need on the chopping block come Tuesday. And, frankly, there are a few I know in some law firms that need to discover judgment day.
Agreed
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:42 PM   #3265
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
Here's Axelrod making a directly Nazi comparison: https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/sta...46985970302976


See also : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ce695ca34d8f

It's a shame when you blow all of your "Republicans are Nazis" ammo at Mitt Romney, of all people.
So, a few things. One is that Axelrod tweeted that in March, and Romney made his binders of women comment seven months later, in October, so unless you credit Axelrod with prescience remarkable even for a political consultant, it's hard to say that tweet has anything to do with the "binders of women."

Two, when you look at the tweet Axelrod sent five minutes earlier, it's pretty clear that he's not calling Romney a Nazi, but comparing Romney's 7-1 spending advantage in the GOP primary in Illinois to the German army's Blitzkreig.

Third, sometimes people use German when comparing other people to Hitler, but that does not mean any allusion to German is a Hitler comparison. You must get this, since you are pointing out that Mitt's awkwardness in saying "binders of women" did not necessarily signal sexism.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:44 PM   #3266
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Both, although not having control of anything means most of what the Dems are actually trying to accomplish right now is political. How do they do what the need to do - which is mostly get their messaging out - when a big chunk of the attention paid to Dems each week is a new allegation against Al? How do they get media and voter attention on whatever when there's almost certainly ongoing embarrassment happening?
This is our party's problem. This right here.

We craft the message. We address the issues. We weather the storm when there is one. The appropriate response as a party to Franken's shit is: There is currently an investigation. Any new accusations will be added to the investigation and will be considered when leadership must determine the appropriate steps.

Instead, we have a bunch of Adders on our side who are screaming that Franken must leave! We can't be hypocrites! We can't get anything done!

Ridiculous.

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Agreed, but it's not a zero sum game of persuading one pool of voters, and the margins very much matter. Looking no different from the GOP, because we don't do anything about credible allegations of inappropriate behavior either, can absolutely be a factor in someone staying home or voting third party.
Do you even hear yourself? In what world has anyone on this board (or anywhere in the world) said that we shouldn't "do anything about credible allegations?" Absolutely no one. The fact that you think the only thing to be done is for Franken to step down is the problem we are currently discussing. And the fact that you think we "look no different from the GOP" over Franken or even Conyers is batshit crazy.

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Okay then.
Brilliant.

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Seriously, stop this.
Stop what? If you think that demanding Franken step down isn't punishment in most everyone's eyes, including those calling for him to step down, you're nuts.

Usually I'm with you when it comes to your empathy for women's, race, LGBT issues. But the fact that you can't see past "resignation is required for any charge related to sexual impropriety" makes me wonder if you're losing your ability to reason in favor of proving to everyone how empathetic you are.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:46 PM   #3267
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It's almost like we didn't just lose a "there's no difference between the parties" election.
Is that what it was? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I suspect I disagree.

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Also, your fix is nearly exactly what the next sentence you didn't quote says.
What's my fix? And my fix for what?

I can't tell whether the problem you're trying to solve is that Trump is a serial sexual harasser, that Trump is not being restrained much by the rest of the government, that Democrats can't restrain Trump until next fall, that Al Franken is creating bad headlines, or that lots of men treat lots of women badly, but you seem to just toss them all together as if they're the same things.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:47 PM   #3268
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Now every email is “give money.” Which I no longer do.
I blame Obama for this. He had this awesome machine, and that's what he turned it into, through disinterest and neglect.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:50 PM   #3269
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I don't think Franken is going because of the acts he did, really, but instead because he was pissing into the political headwinds. He was becoming a political liability to a lot of other people. It wasn't fair, it was politics, and my hope is he does his penance and we move on. More than one pol in a similar situation has recovered and run for another office before, like Joe Biden with his speech (where he was pretty clearly guilty).

The thing is, this political headwind is clearing out a lot of real assholes. Originally it was mostly the reprobates at Fox, now it's all over. So yes, we should try to avoid the collateral damage.
I think both you and Adder are overstating the damage being done by Franken maintaining office while there is a fucking investigation going on. Who is he becoming a political liability to?

My whole point is I don't think Franken's actions require clearing him out and I don't think he's creating collateral damage that can't be managed with even a little bit of thought. Requiring his head is an overreaction.

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But let's keep clearing out the assholes, there's one in Alabama we need on the chopping block come Tuesday. And, frankly, there are a few I know in some law firms that need to discover judgment day.
This is a complete non-sequitur. It's like when a politician says, "I'm not going to apologize for loving America. I'd like to see someone try to make me!" Sure. I'm with you. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:53 PM   #3270
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I blame Obama for this. He had this awesome machine, and that's what he turned it into, through disinterest and neglect.
I love Obama, but this shit right here is truth.

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