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Old 05-07-2018, 03:00 PM   #691
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually.
Conservatives have no interest in engaging with libs intellectually. They want to pwn libs. Haven't you been paying attention?
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:01 PM   #692
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I strongly believe that what is lacking right now in Northern and Midwestern rural America (it's much more common in Southern rural America) is sufficient immigration. Those areas became American's heartland when they were full of hardworking people speaking different languages and with different religions.
More passenger rail. More passenger rail. More passenger rail.

The track is already there. We should expand the reach of the big cities and link the cities with the country to the extent possible.

And it's environmentally friendly.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:02 PM   #693
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Conservatives have no interest in engaging with libs intellectually. They want to pwn libs. Haven't you been paying attention?
No. I wrote what I wrote without considering that at all.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:03 PM   #694
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I agree with this entirely. Nothing cures adherence to bigoted "isms" like regular exposure to individual members of the groups about which one recklessly generalizes.

But I think the current problem goes beyond just exposure to people of different backgrounds.

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually. Conversation is dead, advocacy its replacement. People view discussions not as opportunities to have their minds changed, or to test the validity of their positions, but as zero sum games.

There is no absolute right or wrong in most complex matters. The Left and the Right are a yin and yang. Everybody sensible person knows this. A society run on exclusively progressive or exclusively conservative policies cannot persist. There has to be horse trading. There used to be horse trading. But it's damn hard to horse trade when you you come to the table with, "Everything you stand for is fundamentally invalid."

Every civics class should require students to memorize this statement:

"Progressivism and Conservatism are both incomplete, like any 'ism.' Neither is tenable alone, both working best as counterweights to one another, ideological checks and balances."
I mean, I take your point, but no, they're not ying and yang, which implies some sort of relationship to each other.

Movement conservatism - of the government doesn't work so let's get rid of it kind - has no room to horse trade with others who believe that government can do things to improve people's lives. Two people who want the government to do different things can compromise. One person who does and one who wants government not to exist can't, or at least can't on anything other than the pace of a one way ratchet to zero.

And despite the 2016 election blowing a giant hole in the notion that there's any popular support for movement conservatism, one thing 45's coalition of deplorables have in common with them is a desire to make sure government isn't helping those people, which works out to be pretty similar.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:07 PM   #695
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Re: Rudy Can Fail

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I do. I think that's mixed into the question of status. The perception is that all of these "others" (non-whites, foreigners, etc.) are making gains. With those gains come economic benefits that the Trump voters we're referring to believe are coming at their expense. But the shorthand for all of their problems is "America First" and if you don't think that's thinly-veiled hate speech, then we disagree on everything. It's a message that we need to get back to what we were when Whites dominated everything (as if they don't now). You get to turn your brain off and just support because it doesn't matter what he says, how offensive he gets, whether he understands the issues, if he's crooked, or whether he colluded with Russia, because he's for you. And if he's for you and will stick it to everyone in Washington who is okay with this trend of accommodating The Other, then he's your guy.

TM
If someone says "I'd be better off if everything wasn't given to the other," instead of "Gosh I'd wish I could get ahead," Of course there is hate there.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:18 PM   #696
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I agree with this entirely. Nothing cures adherence to bigoted "isms" like regular exposure to individual members of the groups about which one recklessly generalizes.

But I think the current problem goes beyond just exposure to people of different backgrounds.

A large percentage of the country has lost the ability to engage each other intellectually. Conversation is dead, advocacy its replacement. People view discussions not as opportunities to have their minds changed, or to test the validity of their positions, but as zero sum games.

There is no absolute right or wrong in most complex matters. The Left and the Right are a yin and yang. Everybody sensible person knows this. A society run on exclusively progressive or exclusively conservative policies cannot persist. There has to be horse trading. There used to be horse trading. But it's damn hard to horse trade when you you come to the negotiating table and open with, "Everything you stand for is fundamentally invalid."

Every civics class should require students to memorize this statement:

"Progressivism and Conservatism are both incomplete, like any 'ism.' Neither is tenable alone, both working best as counterweights to one another, ideological checks and balances."
I don't disagree with this proposition. But this is the situation:
  • In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.
  • Republicans have abandoned facts and science in favor of policy based on wishful thinking. You can point to idiot liberal anti-vaxxers all you like, but the steps being taken by Republicans to actively deny science and fact-based analysis are astonishing. Science is now a left-right issue. That's fucking crazy.
  • Republicans have abandoned the norms on which our government has been run. Because these norms are not codified, they simply ignore them. Steal a Supreme Court seat to maintain control. Set up committees to investigate bullshit and when your own investigation concludes no wrongdoing, ignore it and start another one. Look the other way and actively enable a President who is clearly using the office to enrich himself and his family. Undermine the rule of law by running a pretend investigation into his activities and wrap it up for political reasons.
  • Encourage and enflame racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia to maintain your political position. Fucking codify it when you can (freedom of religion act? Straight bullshit). Ignore it when you can (destroy the voting rights act, support racist policy with pretextual bullshit at every turn).
I could go on and on.

One side of this country is so off the fucking rails that your efforts of trying to talk sense to both sides actually sounds crazy. If one person says, "It's not that cold outside," when it's 29 degrees and another person says, "The trash monster told me I must destroy all skateboards," trying to sit down with both to talk about why they should each be careful about saying irresponsible things makes you seem deranged.

TM

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Old 05-07-2018, 03:19 PM   #697
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Re: Rudy Can Fail

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
If someone says "I'd be better off if everything wasn't given to the other," instead of "Gosh I'd wish I could get ahead," Of course there is hate there.
The weakest people you will ever meet are those who personalize frustrations in order to have targets for their anger. The worst (and likely dumbest) friends, acquaintances, co-workers, or SOs you'll know in life are those who fail at something and then blame someone or some thing for their misfortune.

I can't attack the varied forces that led to my misfortune, and I sure as hell don't want to look inward, but I must vent. And it must be easy. I need a target for my anger... I must find a villain!

All xenophobes fit in this bucket. The thinking is so lousy, so illogical, only a totally irredeemable mind would engage in it. That's why I believe we should ignore them, leave them to flounder and die on their opioids. What good are they ever going to be to anyone?
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:25 PM   #698
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I don't disagree with this proposition. But this is the situation:
  • In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.
  • Republicans have abandoned facts and science in favor of policy based on wishful thinking. You can point to idiot liberal anti-vaxxers all you like, but the steps being taken by Republicans to actively deny science and fact-based analysis are astonishing. Science is now a left-right issue. That's fucking crazy.
  • Republicans have abandoned the norms on which our government has been run. Because these norms are not codified, they simply ignore them. Steal a Supreme Court seat to maintain control. Set up committees to investigate bullshit and when your own investigation concludes no wrongdoing, ignore it and start another one. Look the other way and actively enable a President who is clearly using the office to enrich himself and his family. Undermine the rule of law by running a pretend investigation into his activities and wrap it up for political reasons.
  • Encourage and enflame racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia to maintain your political position. Fucking codify it when you can (freedom of religion act? Straight bullshit). Ignore it when you can (destroy the voting rights act, support racist policy with pretextual bullshit at every turn).
I could go on and on.

One side of this country is so off the fucking rails that your efforts of trying to talk sense to both sides actually sounds crazy. If one person says, "It's not that cold outside," when it's 29 degrees and another person says, "The trash monster told me I must destroy all of skateboards," trying to sit down with both to talk about why they should each be careful about saying irresponsible things makes you seem deranged.

TM
I can't disagree with any of this. There is no equivalence. The Right is 5X as crazy as the Left on the Left's craziest day.

What you've described veers between delusion and nihilism. I think the Right is richly marbled with both.

But it's a short term situation. As you note, the future belongs to the Democrats. And the Right's current strategy is only ensuring that. the Right will fall apart when it falls from power. The tent already barely holds the disparate factions of it together.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:28 PM   #699
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Re: The wrong question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I don't disagree with this proposition. But this is the situation:
  • In terms of gross support, the right is losing. If everyone were forced to vote, Republicans would be murdered. Because they are losing ground, they cheat. They manipulate the voting districts and suppress the vote in ways that Democrats simply do not. (Please don't tell me that there are entrenched Democrats too. We know this. But one side is doing it at rates that simply are not comparable.) Republicans are changing the net numbers to maintain power and they are succeeding wildly.
  • Republicans have abandoned facts and science in favor of policy based on wishful thinking. You can point to idiot liberal anti-vaxxers all you like, but the steps being taken by Republicans to actively deny science and fact-based analysis are astonishing. Science is now a left-right issue. That's fucking crazy.
  • Republicans have abandoned the norms on which our government has been run. Because these norms are not codified, they simply ignore them. Steal a Supreme Court seat to maintain control. Set up committees to investigate bullshit and when your own investigation concludes no wrongdoing, ignore it and start another one. Look the other way and actively enable a President who is clearly using the office to enrich himself and his family. Undermine the rule of law by running a pretend investigation into his activities and wrap it up for political reasons.
  • Encourage and enflame racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia to maintain your political position. Fucking codify it when you can (freedom of religion act? Straight bullshit). Ignore it when you can (destroy the voting rights act, support racist policy with pretextual bullshit at every turn).
I could go on and on.

One side of this country is so off the fucking rails that your efforts of trying to talk sense to both sides actually sounds crazy. If one person says, "It's not that cold outside," when it's 29 degrees and another person says, "The trash monster told me I must destroy all of skateboards," trying to sit down with both to talk about why they should each be careful about saying irresponsible things makes you seem deranged.

TM
I agree with all of this, but did it grow from the original "are the dumb equally represented" argument? Because I think a lot of what you point to as Dem talking points may not be real motivators for a big chunk of the base. I'd say that the R's have moved to having talking points aimed at moving the dumb, whereas the Dems aim at higher thoughts, assuming their dumb will be there anyway.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:34 PM   #700
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
More passenger rail. More passenger rail. More passenger rail.

The track is already there. We should expand the reach of the big cities and link the cities with the country to the extent possible.

And it's environmentally friendly.
I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:



and this:



is regularly just a street dividing the two.

Spend some time on this site to see just how insane it is there: http://toursbyjoshwhitehead.blogspot...-st-louis.html

TM

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Old 05-07-2018, 03:36 PM   #701
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Re: Rudy Can Fail

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
If someone says "I'd be better off if everything wasn't given to the other," instead of "Gosh I'd wish I could get ahead," Of course there is hate there.
You'll have to explain to me why this isn't completely non-responsive.

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Old 05-07-2018, 03:39 PM   #702
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Re: Rudy Can Fail

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You'll have to explain to me why this isn't completely non-responsive.

TM
Uhh, because you're trying to force me into a position I wasn't taking?
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:45 PM   #703
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I agree with all of this, but did it grow from the original "are the dumb equally represented" argument? Because I think a lot of what you point to as Dem talking points may not be real motivators for a big chunk of the base. I'd say that the R's have moved to having talking points aimed at moving the dumb, whereas the Dems aim at higher thoughts, assuming their dumb will be there anyway.
I think people on the left who aren't educated still have a level of compassion that will never be found on the right (at least politically). Democrats know that their people will be there because the types of policy they propose is based on a level of compassion that gets booed at Republican rallies. So, whether or not a supporter is dumb or uneducated, they can understand a policy that protects people. There are exceptions of course (see black churches being homophobic as fuck), but designing policy based on depriving things to other people isn't really a Democratic phenomenon.*

TM

*Obviously the next step in the argument is the makers v. takers point. But that doesn't really speak to all of the "takers" on the right who have redefined themselves as "makers" solely based on the historical status they are currently so terrified of losing.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:46 PM   #704
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Re: The wrong question

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I was just in St. Louis. The city wanted to expand the limited light rail it has to connect the city with the suburbs. The amount of anger generated from white people who think that blacks will use it to come into their neighborhoods and steal and create crime is astonishing. Proposition defeated before they could even draw something up.

The white people who are against it don't look at it as something that will improve their city, create a more connected experience, move labor efficiently, be attractive to potential employers, etc. They see it as an infringement on the bubbles they have created to keep people out.

And when I say, "bubbles," I mean that streets which are technically in the city, are private streets owned by the people who own the houses on that street. They shut them down so that only people who live there can be on them. You can't even drive on them to get to the other side. They're everywhere. And the line of demarcation between this:

and this:

is regularly a street dividing the two.

Spend some time on this site to see just how insane it is there: http://toursbyjoshwhitehead.blogspot...-st-louis.html

TM
Being from Detroit i hadn't thought of SL as having a limited rail system. I took it from the airport downtown every time I was there (several times a few years back) and it seemed feeders went to a lot of places. But you are right there were a lot of places I had to drive, the Hill as an example. Sad, if they had a plan and funding and it was voted down simply for fear of who might be brought in.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:49 PM   #705
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Re: Rudy Can Fail

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Uhh, because you're trying to force me into a position I wasn't taking?
Bullshit. You asked me a question. I answered it. You wrote something ridiculous.

Everyone thinks, "Gosh, I just want to get ahead." One party is filled with people who think, "The reason why I can't is because of [people who aren't like me]."

TM
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