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Old 09-19-2018, 11:40 PM   #2956
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Bullshit, Seb. You said she was the D's infantry. You may not have thought about what you were saying, but that is what you said.



Her reasons are undoubtedly more complex than the way you have attempted to describe them, and the simple way you have described them -- as attempt to keep Kavanaugh off the court -- echos GOP talking points about the unfair thing that is being done to him, whether you realize it or not.
She is D infantry now. But wtf exactly do you not understand about my repeated explanations that THIS IS NOT VOLUNTARY OR SOMETHING SHE DESIRED. Are you that fucking pigheaded that you can’t understand one can be “drafted” into the infantry against her wishes?

Of course you get that. As usual, you’re hiding behind obtuseness. (Read some of Baez’s criticisms of Dylan’s transparent use of that tactic... Might serve you well.)

I don’t see any unfair thing being done to him by her for seeking to keep him off the court. If she thinks he’s a would-be rapist, for fuck’s sake, she has an obligation to seek to stop him.

You can’t ever give it up. I’m agreeing with you, supporting her decision, and you still have to save face.

Consider this: Maybe this GOP taking point is really stupid. Maybe it’s completely sensible, rational, and patriotic for a sexual battery victim to want to keep her attacker off scotus, and it’s fine if this is her only goal here. And maybe, just maybe, that makes your criticism of my citing that fact pretty hollow.

And now put your ego on a shelf, have a Belgian, and say, “Okay. We’re all on the same page here.”
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:12 AM   #2957
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
She is D infantry now. But wtf exactly do you not understand about my repeated explanations that THIS IS NOT VOLUNTARY OR SOMETHING SHE DESIRED. Are you that fucking pigheaded that you can’t understand one can be “drafted” into the infantry against her wishes?

Of course you get that. As usual, you’re hiding behind obtuseness. (Read some of Baez’s criticisms of Dylan’s transparent use of that tactic... Might serve you well.)

I don’t see any unfair thing being done to him by her for seeking to keep him off the court. If she thinks he’s a would-be rapist, for fuck’s sake, she has an obligation to seek to stop him.

You can’t ever give it up. I’m agreeing with you, supporting her decision, and you still have to save face.
I'm not saving face. I was pissed off by the way you described her.

Quote:
Consider this: Maybe this GOP taking point is really stupid. Maybe it’s completely sensible, rational, and patriotic for a sexual battery victim to want to keep her attacker off scotus, and it’s fine if this is her only goal here. And maybe, just maybe, that makes your criticism of my citing that fact pretty hollow.

And now put your ego on a shelf, have a Belgian, and say, “Okay. We’re all on the same page here.”
Did I suggest she is indifferent to whether he is on the Court? Hardly. Again, my problem is with the way you describe her.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:03 AM   #2958
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
She is D infantry now. But wtf exactly do you not understand about my repeated explanations that THIS IS NOT VOLUNTARY OR SOMETHING SHE DESIRED. Are you that fucking pigheaded that you can’t understand one can be “drafted” into the infantry against her wishes?

Of course you get that. As usual, you’re hiding behind obtuseness. (Read some of Baez’s criticisms of Dylan’s transparent use of that tactic... Might serve you well.)

I don’t see any unfair thing being done to him by her for seeking to keep him off the court. If she thinks he’s a would-be rapist, for fuck’s sake, she has an obligation to seek to stop him.

You can’t ever give it up. I’m agreeing with you, supporting her decision, and you still have to save face.

Consider this: Maybe this GOP taking point is really stupid. Maybe it’s completely sensible, rational, and patriotic for a sexual battery victim to want to keep her attacker off scotus, and it’s fine if this is her only goal here. And maybe, just maybe, that makes your criticism of my citing that fact pretty hollow.

And now put your ego on a shelf, have a Belgian, and say, “Okay. We’re all on the same page here.”
Before calling her D infantry or anything else, people need to watch Charles Blow last night. By the way, I'm continuing to have great respect for Senator Feinstein in respecting her wishes for so long. I do not think most politicians would have done that.

I'd like to hope that treating a survivor of sexual assault with respect would be a nonpartisan thing. The Committee can get its information without insisting that it also get its circus.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:37 AM   #2959
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Before calling her D infantry or anything else, people need to watch Charles Blow last night. By the way, I'm continuing to have great respect for Senator Feinstein in respecting her wishes for so long. I do not think most politicians would have done that.

I'd like to hope that treating a survivor of sexual assault with respect would be a nonpartisan thing. The Committee can get its information without insisting that it also get its circus.
That’s an excellent video from start to finish.

I trust you understand when I used infantry, I made it clear she was not intending to be used in a political game. But it’s impossible for her not to be both a tool and a target here. This is politics and politicians are not generally honorable.

Her motives are beyond reproach. Those of many in the warring parties, who intend to use and abuse her, are not. Hence the unfortunate war analogy which, given Grassley’s recent hardball response, seems more and more apt.
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Old 09-20-2018, 12:18 PM   #2960
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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That’s an excellent video from start to finish.

I trust you understand when I used infantry, I made it clear she was not intending to be used in a political game. But it’s impossible for her not to be both a tool and a target here. This is politics and politicians are not generally honorable.

Her motives are beyond reproach. Those of many in the warring parties, who intend to use and abuse her, are not. Hence the unfortunate war analogy which, given Grassley’s recent hardball response, seems more and more apt.
It sounds like you're thinking of her not as infantry but as cannon fodder, but the whole point here is we ought not to do that to her. I think there are some Dems, notably Feinstein but also Gillibrand, for example, and, indeed, almost all the Democratic women Senators, who are on board here, and doing their best to respect what she is dealing with. Let's call these folks the decent people. I think there are others who want to take this nominee down at any cost. Let's call these folks the operatives. If the nominee isn't taken down, the operatives are going to blame the decent people. But frankly the decent people are the ones whose careers I want to advance, because some things shouldn't be partisan.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:23 PM   #2961
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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It sounds like you're thinking of her not as infantry but as cannon fodder, but the whole point here is we ought not to do that to her. I think there are some Dems, notably Feinstein but also Gillibrand, for example, and, indeed, almost all the Democratic women Senators, who are on board here, and doing their best to respect what she is dealing with. Let's call these folks the decent people. I think there are others who want to take this nominee down at any cost. Let's call these folks the operatives. If the nominee isn't taken down, the operatives are going to blame the decent people. But frankly the decent people are the ones whose careers I want to advance, because some things shouldn't be partisan.
Are you (or Ty) saying he should go down over this without some investigation of her claim? That seems really bad precedent given the style of opposition that has existed to every nominee that might change the make up for some time now. I get there may be other reasons people oppose him, but on this one thing, however blunt our instruments might be for investigating, I think it has to happen? i mean you aren't suggesting a pass?
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:54 PM   #2962
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Are you (or Ty) saying he should go down over this without some investigation of her claim? That seems really bad precedent given the style of opposition that has existed to every nominee that might change the make up for some time now. I get there may be other reasons people oppose him, but on this one thing, however blunt our instruments might be for investigating, I think it has to happen? i mean you aren't suggesting a pass?
I think the Senate ought to set high standard and put the burden on him and his advocates to meet those standards.

That might be done through an FBI investigation or in some other way. But putting someone on the court while there is an open question as to whether or not he engaged in serious sexual misconduct, likely criminal if it occurred, doesn't seem to me a risk worth taking for the Senate. And if you think questioning without investigation by a bunch of amateurs is going to settle the question, well, I bet you'd even believe that a negative sign could be a dash.

That may not be completely "fair" to him, but that's not the senate's problem. The Senate's problem is having a Supreme Court with credibility when it rules on issues, including the whole set of highly controversial gender related issues around abortion, birth control, sexual violence, harassment in the workplace and elsewhere, and the many due process and other issues that arise relating to those. This isn't a court proceeding, its a job interview where there are any number of equally or better qualified people eager to get the job.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:57 PM   #2963
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Re: We are all Slave now.

On a completely different point, apparently the Rs are now arguing it was some other Georgetown Prep student whom they have identified who looks alot like Kavanaugh.

WTF?
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:32 PM   #2964
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Are you (or Ty) saying he should go down over this without some investigation of her claim? That seems really bad precedent given the style of opposition that has existed to every nominee that might change the make up for some time now. I get there may be other reasons people oppose him, but on this one thing, however blunt our instruments might be for investigating, I think it has to happen? i mean you aren't suggesting a pass?
I think the guy is a bad liar, but I thought that before this came up.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:07 PM   #2965
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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I think the Senate ought to set high standard and put the burden on him and his advocates to meet those standards.

That might be done through an FBI investigation or in some other way. But putting someone on the court while there is an open question as to whether or not he engaged in serious sexual misconduct, likely criminal if it occurred, doesn't seem to me a risk worth taking for the Senate. And if you think questioning without investigation by a bunch of amateurs is going to settle the question, well, I bet you'd even believe that a negative sign could be a dash.

That may not be completely "fair" to him, but that's not the senate's problem. The Senate's problem is having a Supreme Court with credibility when it rules on issues, including the whole set of highly controversial gender related issues around abortion, birth control, sexual violence, harassment in the workplace and elsewhere, and the many due process and other issues that arise relating to those. This isn't a court proceeding, its a job interview where there are any number of equally or better qualified people eager to get the job.
Maybe watch Advise and Consent? I don't care if he makes it or not. but FWIW I think it inevitable that Trump will get someone on.

If there is an FBI investigation on something that happened a million years and we hear that it is likely something happened, and that means he should not be on the court, god bless. But we can't just say she said this happened so he's toast, right? Beyond him, you realize how this precedent stuff works?
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:08 PM   #2966
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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I think the guy is a bad liar, but I thought that before this came up.
why didn't you say so? maybe if you explained to the senate you're the admin of a Politics board?
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:42 PM   #2967
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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why didn't you say so? maybe if you explained to the senate you're the admin of a Politics board?
Look, you asked what I thought, that's what I think. I am under no illusion that Republican Senators give a shit about what I think about the nominating process.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:48 PM   #2968
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Look, you asked what I thought, that's what I think. I am under no illusion that Republican Senators give a shit about what I think about the nominating process.
fair point. I think everyone on this board should read this response before sending anything.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:19 AM   #2969
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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fair point. I think everyone on this board should read this response before sending anything.
I suspect there are a lot of Republicans with respect for a nominee who thinks it's super important to get a conservative ideologue onto the Supreme Court, even if it means committing perjury about past GOP dirty tricks. That kinda of dedication to the cause is what many of them want.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:54 AM   #2970
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Are you (or Ty) saying he should go down over this without some investigation of her claim? That seems really bad precedent given the style of opposition that has existed to every nominee that might change the make up for some time now. I get there may be other reasons people oppose him, but on this one thing, however blunt our instruments might be for investigating, I think it has to happen? i mean you aren't suggesting a pass?
I don't think anyone has asserted that any nominee should go down simply because an accusation is made. That's obviously an imbecilic and dangerous policy.

I think the policy advocated is that where an accusation is made, there should be some investigation and the accuser should be put to his or her proofs in a forum allowing some form of direct and cross examination, but not a hearing where a bunch of Senators can merely grandstand and make closing arguments for TV at the accuser and accused, rather than ask questions intended to get to the actual truth, or lack of truth, in the allegation.

How do you do that? I think allowing counsel for the accused and accuser to engage in a short hearing before a circuit court judge in which they follow the rules of evidence and federal trial procedure. The accused and accuser both get to testify and the video and transcript are then given to both the Senate and media. That's the only fair method, unfortunately. Doing it before the Senate is a waste of time, political shitshow. Those idiots aren't intellectually fit or unbiased enough to hear such a matter.
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