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Old 02-11-2019, 11:45 AM   #136
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
This is why this board is fun! Forget the main point (that one "forgives" only those of one's same beliefs/party), and focus on a reply to reply to reply to reply! Good work. But you keep proving my point- there are Rs (or libertarians?) who believe AA actually harms black people- (I don't so snarky replies will go w/o response)- to you that means a R who believes AA is bad can't prove "good since my blackface days." It is circular- the only way to repair is to lead a life following what I believe is the right way- since the other party doesn't, they haven't led the life that repairs- none of them have. just own it for goodness sake.
There is no reason to own this because what you're saying is stupid. Just because someone believes destroying affirmative action (which is remedial in nature, btw) is a good thing doesn't actually make it a good thing. If you're out here talking about how all policy should be colorblind when every institution is decidedly not colorblind, you may believe that (although I think almost everyone who argues that bullshit is full of shit), but you are wrong. So, if you have a racist past and your policies harm people of color, you're damn right, you can fuck off.

Just stop it.

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Old 02-11-2019, 11:46 AM   #137
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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I recall Clarence Thomas arguing that it harms him by raising doubt that he earned his achievements rather than had them handed to him.

This seems preferable to being systematically denied opportunities, but I believe her argued it in his (one of his?) books, which I most definitely did not read.
HE BENEFITED FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! God, I hate that man.

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Old 02-11-2019, 11:49 AM   #138
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
There is no reason to own this because what you're saying is stupid. Just because someone believes destroying affirmative action (which is remedial in nature, btw) is a good thing doesn't actually make it a good thing. If you're out here talking about how all policy should be colorblind when every institution is decidedly not colorblind, you may believe that (although I think almost everyone who argues that bullshit is full of shit), but you are wrong. So, if you have a racist past and your policies harm people of color, you're damn right, you can fuck off.

Just stop it.

TM
Fair enough (your dismissal of such people, not the attacks) but what you are saying is that people who do not agree with you on the issue (and again I agree with you on AA) are essentially bad. I do not disagree they are bad, but that is a judgement based upon my belief.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:55 AM   #139
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Awkward thought that these boards are sorta for: I’ve always thought Jessica Williams, who is smart and super funny, was quite attractive and never thought of her as having a lighter complexion (was gonna say “light skinned” but that seemed weird from me even though you hear it that way). Then Lupita was on 2 Dope Queens and made me question everything.
Haven't seen the episode, but I wouldn't call Jessica Williams light-skinned. She's definitely not dark-skinned. But I think she has somewhat European features, which can lead to people thinking of her as lighter-skinned because European features (especially when it comes to one's nose) seem to be overwhelmingly preferable in our society.

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Anywho, Lupita is absolutely stunning and has completely stunning skin (yeah, that last bit is likely a bit racist).
That's not racist. She absolutely has beautiful skin.

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Old 02-11-2019, 12:05 PM   #140
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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THEN asking what is the standard? Must one satisfy one is actually okay given all views of the insulted class, or is there some objective average? Like with Frakken- many voices said give him a pass, others said he needs to go- if there are voices to fry the guy and others saying let him stand, do we find a mean?
What is the standard for anything problematic? Just because there are issues that people view as "not their issue" does not mean that those who are the subject of the harm have to define the standard for you. As I said, black people are not a monolithic block. Neither are women. People within those groups disagree on how best to proceed. Don't use that fact as an excuse to throw up your hands and say, "Mixed messages! I give up!"

I tend to take a practical tack. Is the person doing positive things? Have they learned their lesson? How bad was the behavior at issue? What happens if they're removed? Isn't this what people do for all issues? When it comes to racism, sexism, homophobia, I can understand why it's harder for people to approach it that way because it's something that's very personal and hurtful. But if you're looking for a bright line rule, you're just not going to get it. You have to do the hard work like everyone else.

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Old 02-11-2019, 12:08 PM   #141
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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stp- basically people with a political stance define what is good from the standpoint of that political stance. I'm not throwing dirt at Dems, I'm just suggesting everyone be honest that whether an official has "value" that might merit saving comes from one's political stance.
No. I disagree. Value when it comes to racial equity can be judged. And if you're pretending (and even if you're not) that destroying AA in a racist world is beneficial, I get to judge you on that.

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Old 02-11-2019, 12:13 PM   #142
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Fair enough (your dismissal of such people, not the attacks) but what you are saying is that people who do not agree with you on the issue (and again I agree with you on AA) are essentially bad. I do not disagree they are bad, but that is a judgement based upon my belief.
How is this different than anything else? Just because you can't measure the effect of both options doesn't put the two things on equal footing.

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Old 02-11-2019, 12:14 PM   #143
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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What is the standard for anything problematic? Just because there are issues that people view as "not their issue" does not mean that those who are the subject of the harm have to define the standard for you. As I said, black people are not a monolithic block. Neither are women. People within those groups disagree on how best to proceed. Don't use that fact as an excuse to throw up your hands and say, "Mixed messages! I give up!"

I tend to take a practical tack. Is the person doing positive things? Have they learned their lesson? How bad was the behavior at issue? What happens if they're removed? Isn't this what people do for all issues? When it comes to racism, sexism, homophobia, I can understand why it's harder for people to approach it that way because it's something that's very personal and hurtful. But if you're looking for a bright line rule, you're just not going to get it. You have to do the hard work like everyone else.

TM
I don't have a problem reaching my own opinion. I was wondering what others do, and really, what should the disgraced actor/politician do with mixed voices.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:23 PM   #144
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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I don't have a problem reaching my own opinion. I was wondering what others do, and really, what should the disgraced actor/politician do with mixed voices.
The problem is that people don't yet understand that this stuff is a bit out of their control. They want to just do or say whatever will get them out of jeopardy. And the fact that it may not exist is very frustrating to deal with.

You have to be genuine. And that may not work still. If you shit on people, some will get over it, others won't. But I think that so many white people (when it comes to race issues) and men (when it comes to sexism), etc., then turn to the group that has been harmed and say, "What the fuck am I supposed to do? Give me something that will satisfy all of you and I'll do it." It just doesn't work that way because, as I've said, black people (for example) aren't a block that moves in sync.

TM
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:31 PM   #145
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
I recall Clarence Thomas arguing that it harms him by raising doubt that he earned his achievements rather than had them handed to him.

This seems preferable to being systematically denied opportunities, but I believe her argued it in his (one of his?) books, which I most definitely did not read.
I recall that as well. That was the intellectual underpinning of the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

It's the silliest mix of illogic and sophistry. As though he'd rather not be there, in a position to prove those critics wrong.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:24 PM   #146
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Credible allegations for which he asked for a full investigation. Gillibrand lead the charge to remove him before he was allowed an investigation. And the one allegation based on that photo was not something he deserved to lose his job over. Censure him or punish him in some other way. But there is no denying that there was a rush to judgment. And Gillibrand was grandstanding.
What I'm about to say is only a little about Franken and Gillibrand. There are a lot of people who are not interested in waiting for the results of formal investigations in situations like this one, and on some level I think that results from the intuition that formal processes like investigations can't be trusted to get at the truth of what happened, that there are too many false negatives. It's obviously problematic, because calling on people to resign without an investigation sounds unfair.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:25 PM   #147
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Very few are smart enough to walk away when they “ring the bell.”

After much deliberation, I have determined that I am in a position that my financial future, and that of my family unto my grandchildren's generation, is secure. Having worked at the same outfit for 44 years, I have decided not to make a career of it. The signature cases I have on my docket are in the "pig has moved through most of the python" stage. My successor is more than ready, she has been ready for a decade. Time to step down before the Board taps me on the shoulder, pins a note to my sweater, and leaves me at a dog track. It is time. I'm going out on a very good note.



At age 72 and a low fraction, I will ring the bell on March 29, thus making April Fools Day my first day of retirement. Bueller LLC will open for business the next day.



Mostly, I'll be found at beaches between North Carolina, Bermuda, Aruba, Costa Rica, and, when the narco problem clears up again, Barra Beach in Rio. Buy futures in SPF 90 sunscreen. I'll be using it by the quart as I fish for breakfast at sunrise, reapplying until the cocktail hour at sunset.



I also expect to be busy enough, but not too busy. I will be working for the World Bank and the Financial Services Volunteer Corps once or twice a year to see a few of the more remote emerging economies I have yet to visit. Get ticket, review facts on the ground, write report, repeat.



I wish all of you the same level of happiness in your careers that I've been fortunate enough to have. Peace.
Hey, that's awesome. Hope your new gig inspires you to more productive and creative levels of posting here.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:45 PM   #148
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Wait until you get old. We'll see how fucking unangry you are.
I can't wait. Going to back out of my driveway without looking. EVERY. TIME.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:45 PM   #149
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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There are a lot of people who are not interested in waiting for the results of formal investigations in situations like this one, and on some level I think that results from the intuition that formal processes like investigations can't be trusted to get at the truth of what happened, that there are too many false negatives. It's obviously problematic, because calling on people to resign without an investigation sounds unfair.
It doesn't sound unfair. It is unfair. A story told from one person's perspective is only a piece of what happened. And an accuser's perspective is always biased. (The person's obviously angered enough to have accused another.)

I've sued people and received large recoveries for things I could convincingly present as negligence but which were really more a confluence of random events that led to someone being harmed or fired. My narrative was accepted because juries like to hear stories, and our claims could be packaged into stories. The defense did not have such a great story because telling a jury of common people that a mix of random events led to a circumstance that looked like negligence but wasn't does two things:

1. It robs the audience (the jury) of the ability to use their primordial pattern-finding mind (which works against their instinct); and,
2. If they find its more random than negligent, the plaintiff does not get paid, which feels unfulfilling to a lot of common folk.

The argument that process gets in the way on claims of harassment too easily leads to "buying a subjective narrative." We certainly don't need to investigate Franken's transgressions like serious crimes, but the accused should have an opportunity to put out his version of events and present exculpatory evidence and witnesses. You don't convict on a memoir.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:47 PM   #150
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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I can't wait. Going to back out of my driveway without looking. EVERY. TIME.
Too late, you're already old if you don't get that cars already drive themselves.
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