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01-18-2018, 06:32 PM
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#3946
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rose City 'til I Die
Posts: 3,300
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Re: Aziz
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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I love Samantha Bee and I don't think I've ever disagreed with her.
What bothers me so much about this specific example is that it is so very one-sided. I hate that Ansari hasn't recounted the night from his perspective. He would be crazy to do it, but I think in a case like this (where it is being used to have real and sincere conversations about important issues), it would be nice if we could have a fuller view of what happened.
So what happens with the eggshell "plaintiff?" And to be sure, I'm not labeling Grace as such. But if some woman thought she was sending clear signals, but then actively kissed and touched the other person, received and gave oral sex, and felt like it was a terrible awful experience, wasn't respected, was coerced, and ended up going public, is the fact that--in my hypothetical--her perspective is the only one that is given credence or exposure problematic? Obviously this is a tortured and unrealistic hypo, but if we had Ansari's full perspective, would some of what Grace said be given the side-eye?
Hell, one GA kissed me full on the lips at a GA meet-up.* And she tried it two more times. I sure as hell wasn't hitting on her. But she told more than a few people that I kissed her. And we all know patentpara accused me of hitting on her and making her feel uncomfortable because she was angry. If I hadn't said anything in either case, what would Samantha Bee be saying about those women? What would she be saying about me?**
TM
*No, not paigow.
**I hate this shit. Given how little attention harassment stories have received and how little support victims have received historically, and how unlikely it is that anyone who had a terrible sexual experience would come forward for no reason, it makes me ill to be bringing this stupid shit up like I'm some white dude complaining about reverse discrimination. But here I am doing it anyway. Damn it. Can I blame Canada?
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I'm betting on Fugee. And if it was Fringey, Hank is going to want a word with you...
__________________
Drinking gin from a jam jar.
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01-18-2018, 06:50 PM
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#3947
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Steaming Hot
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Giving a three hour blowjob
Posts: 8,220
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Re: Aziz
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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Damn it. Can I blame Canada?
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You can blame Canada for Samantha Bee, because she's one of us.
I don't know how to feel in this debate and I am uncomfortable hearing her take. I don't even feel qualified to weigh in on how these women may be feeling because I can't empathize. I've never been date-raped, or date-harassed or whatever -- if anything when I was young and super-slutty saying no would never have occurred to me and was the type of girl who wanted to fuck professional athletes just for the stories (Hello Captain Kirk*). And I've experienced two specific instances of clear-cut sexual harassment, once from a law school professor and the other from a boss, and in both instances, I didn't feel threatened, I thought it was funny and that they were idiots trying to punch above their weight.
So while I feel like I can't really empathize, I want to be compassionate, but in the Aziz incident, I feel compassion for both parties. It's just a very uncomfortable set of circumstances.
*Probably only Slave (sniff) would get that I'm not talking about throwing myself at William Shatner here. Not Bob, maybe? Where's Not Bob in all this?
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01-18-2018, 06:51 PM
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#3948
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Random Syndicate (admin)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Romantically enfranchised
Posts: 14,252
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Re: Aziz
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Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick
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Huh. I'm part of a Star Wars group, and they're talking about how shitty people are because it's the woman who plays Rose's birthday today, and she's gotten just awful, vile comments on her instagram from aggrieved Star Wars fans. One of the comments there rang true to this discussion (I don't know if you can see this if you're not part of the group):
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In all honesty — I think if Rose had been played by a thin white actress, instead of a chubby Asian one, she wouldn’t have caught nearly as much flak. Maybe this is an an unpopular opinion, but here goes:
Certain viewers (usually straight white men, but of course that’s not true across the board) are used to seeing their fantasies played out on film. They are NOT used to seeing these fantasies criticized or subverted.
Time and again, in movie after movie, they watch men they identify with get together with women they find attractive. When they don’t get that — when there is no “ideal,” sexualized woman for them to gaze upon, and no (white) man to project themselves onto — these viewers become confused. They feel cheated. This isn’t what they paid to see! Doesn’t the filmmaker know what they want? That confusion manifests as inarticulate discomfort at best and frothing rage at worst.
To take it further, it’s not just Rose who’s affected here. This is why Holdo caused a strong negative reaction among certain men: In any other movie, Poe’s rugged individualism would’ve been rewarded by the narrative — but in TLJ, it was slapped down. It’s also why Kylo Ren has gotten backlash from certain (male) corners of fandom: He’s emotional, powerful but often floundering, not in control of himself or the people around him. Kylo Ren actually subverts certain male power fantasies (emotion is for silly girls, duh), so he’s labeled “weak” and mockingly called “Kylie.”
The Last Jedi didn’t just subvert expectations about what a Star Wars movie is “supposed” to be. It also subverted expectations about mainstream movies in general — and Rose is one of the most obvious examples.
Anyway, I love Rose.
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This is sort of related. Dudes* don't like to be excluded from important stuff. They're not used to it, and they don't know how to handle it.
"There's a list that women are passing around? Shit! Maybe I'm on it! I was shitty that one time to that intern that turned out to actually be a pretty good reporter and moved up the ladder. But that was years ago. Surely she's forgotten by now. Dammit! She better not have said anything."
"She's going to the media? I said I'm sorry! Dammit. It's fine if it's just her friends from Dartmouth, but now I have to hire one of those crisis management people."
"There's a paradigm shift going on that MAY actually take hold and it means I can't be as crude as I usually am? Why did no one consult me??"
I've been harsh on Adder, because I do think there's a society grounded privacy interest in what happens during sex. I also think that it has to be weighed against other interests. I'm on the fence on whether Grace's story would have been effective if his name were eliminated or whether the interest in exposing him as unconcerned with his partner's experience outweighs the privacy interest. And I really wish it had been a better publication with a more mature and seasoned journalist at the helm. But I have no problem with Grace telling her story.
*Generalization! Not you! I'm sure you're ok with sitting back and watching it all unfold without comment or criticism.
__________________
"In the olden days before the internet, you'd take this sort of person for a ride out into the woods and shoot them, as Darwin intended, before he could spawn."--Will the Vampire People Leave the Lobby? pg 79
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01-18-2018, 06:53 PM
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#3949
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Random Syndicate (admin)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Romantically enfranchised
Posts: 14,252
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
People have been wondering why the Navy doctor who examined Trump (and Obama before him) was so effusive about Trump's health, and have seen it as another small step in the disintegration of the republic. My theory: The doctor wants Trump to be able to confide in him when and if POTUS has a medical issue, and was just doing what he could to establish a trusting doctor-patient relationship. While the public has a legit right to know at least something about POTUS's health, maybe the doctor sees that as less important than making sure that POTUS gets the care he needs.
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My theory: He asked Trump what his height was without bothering to measure. Trump being Trump inflated. I can't remember the last time a doctor actually measured me. They always ask instead. It's not like it changes that much over time once you're full grown.
__________________
"In the olden days before the internet, you'd take this sort of person for a ride out into the woods and shoot them, as Darwin intended, before he could spawn."--Will the Vampire People Leave the Lobby? pg 79
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01-18-2018, 07:05 PM
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#3950
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[intentionally omitted]
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,595
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Re: Aziz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan
Huh. I'm part of a Star Wars group, and they're talking about how shitty people are because it's the woman who plays Rose's birthday today, and she's gotten just awful, vile comments on her instagram from aggrieved Star Wars fans. One of the comments there rang true to this discussion (I don't know if you can see this if you're not part of the group):
This is sort of related. Dudes* don't like to be excluded from important stuff. They're not used to it, and they don't know how to handle it.
"There's a list that women are passing around? Shit! Maybe I'm on it! I was shitty that one time to that intern that turned out to actually be a pretty good reporter and moved up the ladder. But that was years ago. Surely she's forgotten by now. Dammit! She better not have said anything."
"She's going to the media? I said I'm sorry! Dammit. It's fine if it's just her friends from Dartmouth, but now I have to hire one of those crisis management people."
"There's a paradigm shift going on that MAY actually take hold and it means I can't be as crude as I usually am? Why did no one consult me??"
I've been harsh on Adder, because I do think there's a society grounded privacy interest in what happens during sex. I also think that it has to be weighed against other interests. I'm on the fence on whether Grace's story would have been effective if his name were eliminated or whether the interest in exposing him as unconcerned with his partner's experience outweighs the privacy interest. And I really wish it had been a better publication with a more mature and seasoned journalist at the helm. But I have no problem with Grace telling her story.
*Generalization! Not you! I'm sure you're ok with sitting back and watching it all unfold without comment or criticism.
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This post is way more excellent than the tripe we've been writing. Hell, I kinda want to join your Star Wars group because I love Rose too (although the director didn't give her much to work with when she fell out after the kiss*).
TM
*Come on. That's not really a spoiler.
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01-18-2018, 07:13 PM
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#3951
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Wearing the cranky pants
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pulling your finger
Posts: 7,101
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Re: Aziz (English Beat Remix)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
.Hell, one GA kissed me full on the lips at a GA meet-up.*
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Darling, I confess ...
...
yes I've ruined three lives
And didn't care till I found out that one of them was mine
__________________
Boogers!
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01-18-2018, 08:12 PM
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#3952
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Aziz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I love Samantha Bee and I don't think I've ever disagreed with her.
What bothers me so much about this specific example is that it is so very one-sided. I hate that Ansari hasn't recounted the night from his perspective. He would be crazy to do it, but I think in a case like this (where it is being used to have real and sincere conversations about important issues), it would be nice if we could have a fuller view of what happened.
So what happens with the eggshell "plaintiff?" And to be sure, I'm not labeling Grace as such. But if some woman thought she was sending clear signals, but then actively kissed and touched the other person, received and gave oral sex, and felt like it was a terrible awful experience, wasn't respected, was coerced, and ended up going public, is the fact that--in my hypothetical--her perspective is the only one that is given credence or exposure problematic? Obviously this is a tortured and unrealistic hypo, but if we had Ansari's full perspective, would some of what Grace said be given the side-eye?
Hell, one GA kissed me full on the lips at a GA meet-up.* And she tried it two more times. I sure as hell wasn't hitting on her. But she told more than a few people that I kissed her. And we all know patentpara accused me of hitting on her and making her feel uncomfortable because she was angry. If I hadn't said anything in either case, what would Samantha Bee be saying about those women? What would she be saying about me?**
TM
*No, not paigow.
**I hate this shit. Given how little attention harassment stories have received and how little support victims have received historically, and how unlikely it is that anyone who had a terrible sexual experience would come forward for no reason, it makes me ill to be bringing this stupid shit up like I'm some white dude complaining about reverse discrimination. But here I am doing it anyway. Damn it. Can I blame Canada?
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This is not analogous to silly reverse discrimination claims. This is an argument that one standard applies to one sex, a different standard to another.
The uncomfortable part of this is some believing that one sex’s failure to grasp the other’s cues is entirely that sex’s fault and never a combined failing. Ansari has been held to a bit of a mind-reading standard here. Grace should also be held to mind-reader standard. A lot of people discussing this story are applying this “equal empathy” standard, which is reasonable. But a lot of other people, I’d submit less reasonable sorts, are fighting it. And it can’t be said any other way: Those people are suggesting women are weaker, and have less agency, and less capacity to handle themselves in these situations. They are saying women need a handicap here, and men are suspect until proven innocent.
This is, of course, a massive academic circle jerk. Normal people navigate this shit all day long without issue, without assaulting or unjustly accusing each other of unsavory things. It’s sad this shit needs to be explained to anyone.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-18-2018, 08:28 PM
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#3953
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,115
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
On that spectrum of behavior that ranges from "shared a meaningful, respectful, generous, and fulfilling night" to "rape," there lies a point where he may think they were having fun, hasn't forced her to do anything and yet hasn't acted in a way his sexual partner feels happy about.
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That point is as soon as she feels he has done something coercive, disrpectful or non-consensual degrading. There's no point after she feels victimized where his privacy nevertheless wins out.
I really don't think you disagree with that although you seem to want to reserve your own judgment as to whether she was reasonable in feeling victimized. I get that sentiment - she could be truly off the wall - but I'm deeply wary of deciding that for anyone given that I have no experience at all of being in those shoes.
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But you keep arguing that he should have absolutely no expectation of privacy in a situation in which he may not have even picked up on how he made someone feel uncomfortable.
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I don't really think his lack of awareness comes into it, exactly because the point here is that the change we are looking for is that he be more aware.
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. When he is seeking out someone who he thinks will be discrete and chooses partners carefully, that's evidence that he has an expectation that they respect his privacy.
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Huh. I think it's exactly the opposite. I think it's that he doesn't expect privacy that he needs to be particularly careful to find someone who will afford him unexpected consideration.
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Just because people are shitty, he shouldn't expect them not to be
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I guess I think that's what "expect" ⎌means.
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01-18-2018, 08:32 PM
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#3954
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,115
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
A buddy of mine met a woman at a conference who told him she performed a certain sexual act on me in college. I do not recall it, and did not recognize her later photo. I believe the assumption is I was on hallucinogens st the time (not a stretch then). The girl said I was way out of my head.
I found a yearbook and asked a housemate about her. He recalled her.
I’ve no clue, but she says I enjoyed it. Seems a nice person, funny, and cute (I probably should’ve recalled it and maybe actually gotten to know her). What should I think of her? I’ve always thought it funny. Apparently, it’s not? Or is it only a joke when you’re a guy? Because you’re stronger? ...Because I kind of think she had a lot more dexterity than I did in that moment.
This Pandora’s box is a lot bigger and a lot more complicated than the analyses of this Ansari situation have suggested.
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In my book, it's never assault unless you feel victimized. Neither you nor RT apparently did, which is good.
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01-18-2018, 08:46 PM
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#3955
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,115
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
On your view of privacy, among other things, it's pretty much impossible to comply about government intrusions.
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I don't follow you. There is an obvious difference between what a private participant can do regarding your privacy and what the government can do. This distinction is everywhere in the law of privacy, such that it is. That your friend can open your drawer full of weed and not have the evidence excluded doesn't not imply that Officer Krupke can too, for a very crude example.
Nor does that you let your friend into the house imply that you let strangers in and thus would let cops in. In short, you're stretching massively and ignoring the fact that the woman involved has a interest here too.
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If any private person can violate your privacy because they feel upset
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Again, when has there ever been a contarary rule? When has a person who truthfully feels wronged been unable to state that fact, in court or otherwise? You're beyond stretching.
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. You just don't seem to place any inherent value on a person's interest in being left alone.
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The interest is in being left alone by the government. You have no interest in being left alone by the person you invited into you bedroom with respect to what you did to them there. None. You invited them. You did what you did. They have an equal interest in what happened. You don't get to shush your victims because you don't think you did anything wrong. I can't believe you're even arguing this.
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01-18-2018, 08:52 PM
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#3956
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Moderasaurus Rex
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,940
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Re: Aziz (English Beat Remix)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessinSF
Darling, I confess ...
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yes I've ruined three lives
And didn't care till I found out that one of them was mine
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Always the right time for that one.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
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01-18-2018, 08:57 PM
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#3957
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,115
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Re: Aziz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan
I've been harsh on Adder, because I do think there's a society grounded privacy interest in what happens during sex. I also think that it has to be weighed against other interests. I'm on the fence on whether Grace's story would have been effective if his name were eliminated or whether the interest in exposing him as unconcerned with his partner's experience outweighs the privacy interest. And I really wish it had been a better publication with a more mature and seasoned journalist at the helm. But I have no problem with Grace telling her story.
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I don't think you've been harsh to me, but otherwise agree with all of this. It's complicated.
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01-18-2018, 09:31 PM
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#3958
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Proud Holder-Post 200,000
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan
My theory: He asked Trump what his height was without bothering to measure. Trump being Trump inflated. I can't remember the last time a doctor actually measured me. They always ask instead. It's not like it changes that much over time once you're full grown.
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But Trump came in 1 pound under obese for the height. He couldn't have guestimated that, right?
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
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01-19-2018, 08:57 AM
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#3959
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: A pool of my own vomit
Posts: 732
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
In my book, it's never assault unless you feel victimized.
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That a fine representation of your belief, but that is not objective truth. And that blurs the lines somewhat into the belief that if you feel victimized, it is assault (which you have heavily implied in your missives about Grace). Whether someone is a victim is an objective standard and how some millennial feels about it is relevant, but not exactly determinative of the conclusion.
And whether a reasonable person would feel victimized is a better standard anyway.
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01-19-2018, 09:47 AM
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#3960
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick
That a fine representation of your belief, but that is not objective truth. And that blurs the lines somewhat into the belief that if you feel victimized, it is assault (which you have heavily implied in your missives about Grace). Whether someone is a victim is an objective standard and how some millennial feels about it is relevant, but not exactly determinative of the conclusion.
And whether a reasonable person would feel victimized is a better standard anyway.
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I know I've plugged it already, but for instruction on how the country came to embrace "subjective truth," you really have to read Kurt Anderson's Fantasyland.
You and I and most people here would bang our heads against the wall arguing with someone who claimed perception is reality, or that there are differing truths. There's only one truth regarding anything that happens, and that is exactly what happened. This doesn't change because someone feels a certain way.
When someone feels a certain way, their experience of those feelings is a separate fact, apart from the incident or event from which they arise. These feelings do not change the underlying reality of what has happened. That an event causes an asymmetrical reaction in a millennial versus a person of our age experiencing that same event does not mean the facts of what happened are different. We both experienced the same thing. Those are facts. We felt differently as a result. Those are other facts. You can't mix the latter with the former to suggest that the former was worse, or better, than it objectively was.
Reality based on one's feelings is not reality. It's an endlessly subjective array of "alternative facts" and narratives.
And this is where I come back to Anderson. There's a direct line between the Salem Witch Trials, Manifest Destiny, Pentecostals speaking in tongues, Mormonism, William Jennings Bryan at the Scopes Trial, American Exceptionalism, New Age-ism, Survivalism, Hippie Commune Societies, Karl Rove's post-fact world, Climate Change Denial, Millennial Belief that One's Feelings are Objective Reality, Alt-Right Racism, and now Trumpism. It's all delusion of a sort, rooted in the same cognitive dissonance and the belief one can will himself a reality other than the objective one we're all experiencing.
We can all empathize with each other's subjective feelings about a thing, but that doesn't change the objective reality of the thing that happened. A lot of people seem to think that they are entitled to perceive things a certain way, and that others must treat their subjective perceptions as sacred. That their feelings may not be challenged as objectively unreasonable. This is a very queer and strident form of fabulism.
Fantasyland is highly amusing, but can also be terribly depressing, except for this: The objective never goes away. Grace does not get her own reality. Nor does Donald Trump. In the end, they're all futile characters, speed-bumps in a progression toward a world based primarily on reason.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 01-19-2018 at 09:54 AM..
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