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07-30-2012, 03:18 PM
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#3166
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Hello, Dum-Dum.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 10,117
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Re: Stuck on Repeats
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Originally Posted by Shape Shifter
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That is some serious shit. Better get some guys in from NYC to handle it.
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07-30-2012, 03:19 PM
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#3167
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
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Re: In house
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
So I've heard. But we never saw that in the City of Brotherly Love. Those were called, I believe, "New York lawyers," as in, "This is serious shit. The client got some guys from NY to handle it."
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Yeah, if I had a fancy rate and lived in Philly, I'd get out of Philly.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
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07-30-2012, 03:20 PM
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#3168
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
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Re: Stuck on Repeats
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Originally Posted by Shape Shifter
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I've got to reup my subscription. THIS is journalism. Not those NYT guys tweeting about euros.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
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07-30-2012, 03:37 PM
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#3169
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Proud Holder-Post 200,000
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
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Re: In house
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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
The question is: Is the industry contracting long-term or is this just a product of the fucked up economy with the inevitable bounce back in business once it's humming again.
I tend to think that once serious changes have been made, there's no going back. But I've been told the current situation we're in has occurred a number of times over the past 30-40 years. And we always return to the same screwy business model.
TM
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I've got to be at ground zero (Detroit) of companies looking to cut- a few years back I was seeing some litigation that was "big city lawyer" coming to local firms to save money. I actually got some smaller ticket files from auto suppliers that had sent everything to Chicago or NY. We were successful on the files and I thought for sure we'd move to bigger ticket lawsuits, but that hasn't happened. The "gosh, sorry we lost, but i hired NY (or Chicago (or in 1 case Houston)) counsel, so I couldn't have done anything more" thing is still holding up. You've lost the smaller stuff is all I've seen.
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I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
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07-30-2012, 04:20 PM
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#3170
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[intentionally omitted]
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,595
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Top 20
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07-30-2012, 04:35 PM
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#3171
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World Ruler
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
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Re: In house
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
If he works in an office with a glory hole in the loo, his retirement goals are attainable on Social Security alone.
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Are you channeling Jerry Jones again?
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I've been here 23 years. I've been here when it was glory hole days and when it wasn't. I want me some glory hole.
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http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/da....troversies.ece
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"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
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07-30-2012, 06:47 PM
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#3172
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
So I've heard. But we never saw that in the City of Brotherly Love. Those were called, I believe, "New York lawyers," as in, "This is serious shit. The client got some guys from NY to handle it."
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In my little corner of the legal world, Dechert at least used to get some of the fancy rate stuff out of Philly.
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07-30-2012, 09:16 PM
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#3173
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,519
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Re: In house
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
* ETA: Some would argue, "You can't quickly create a glut in a specialty like mine. One needs years of experience and talent to do what I do."
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Monkeys are getting easier and easier to train.
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gothamtakecontrol
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07-30-2012, 09:31 PM
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#3174
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Podunkville
Posts: 6,034
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Foreman says these jobs are going, boys, and they ain't coming back
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall
The question is: Is the industry contracting long-term or is this just a product of the fucked up economy with the inevitable bounce back in business once it's humming again.
I tend to think that once serious changes have been made, there's no going back. But I've been told the current situation we're in has occurred a number of times over the past 30-40 years. And we always return to the same screwy business model.
TM
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Yes, the current situation has happened a number of times before. But after each time, there may have been stabilization, but there wasn't any real reversal of the trend towards stratification in the legal market. (At least in litigation; I freely admit to knowing nothing about transactional stuff.)
In the recent crises in the legal market -- at least the ones within my memory -- insurance companies didn't go back to using BigLaw or Regional BigLaw or MidLaw to handle most cases. First it was the auto cases and the slip and falls (sic transit gloria mundi), then the med mal cases, then the coverage cases, then the E&O and EPL cases, now the less than a billion dollar D&O cases. Business clients in most non-bet the company cases followed this pattern, slightly behind the carriers.
Where are these cases going? One of two types of boutiques; factories for the run of the mill cases (called "commodity practice" by the gurus at Altman Weil) where paralegals and staff attorneys push paper until the adjuster writes a check at mediation -- yes, this is a gross over-exaggeration -- and, for the less run of the mill cases, actual litigation boutiques when lawyers push paper until an adjuster writes a check at mediation, but since the cases occasionally go to trial, there's at least one lawyer at the boutique who knows that one wears a navy blue suit with a white shirt on day one of trial.
At the same time, Skadden and Cravath (and other firms for certain industries) will continue to get more cases than their lawyers can handle. David Boies will continue to charge more per hour than Atticus' two preschool tuition payments, and clients will continue to line up for the privilege of having him foist the case off on an associate because he is arguing Prop 8 with Ted Olsen.
I am a mere litigator, but I assume that Fortune 500 companies will continue to use BigLaw in offerings and big deals. But I do know that the Podunkville Power Company ain't using Shea & Gould to represent them on the financing of the new generator, and PlannersBanc (f/k/a First National of Podunkville) ain't using Finley Kumble for their FDIC submissions no more.
ETA: What Hank said.
ETA2: And Icky.
Last edited by Not Bob; 07-30-2012 at 09:34 PM..
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07-31-2012, 07:45 AM
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#3175
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
In my little corner of the legal world, Dechert at least used to get some of the fancy rate stuff out of Philly.
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Dechert is not a Philadelphia firm. It's a NY firm that technically, tenuously retains a Philly HQ. Hell, they moved their offices right next to 30th Street Station, and only stayed because the City gave them a 10 year tax abatement. You can't get much closer to being out of town.
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All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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07-31-2012, 07:52 AM
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#3176
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski
I've got to be at ground zero (Detroit) of companies looking to cut- a few years back I was seeing some litigation that was "big city lawyer" coming to local firms to save money. I actually got some smaller ticket files from auto suppliers that had sent everything to Chicago or NY. We were successful on the files and I thought for sure we'd move to bigger ticket lawsuits, but that hasn't happened. The "gosh, sorry we lost, but i hired NY (or Chicago (or in 1 case Houston)) counsel, so I couldn't have done anything more" thing is still holding up. You've lost the smaller stuff is all I've seen.
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The reason today looks like years past? Across the board, rates are stagnant, or dropping (accounting tricks and lying press releases are used by firms to suggest rates are still moving upward at pre-2008 levels, but everyone knows the reality), and PPP only increases due to decreased headcount. Hence, the price of the work at all levels - small, medium, boutique, big - is a bit cheaper.
A good analogy is older folks griping in 2009 about what happened to their portfolio in 2008. "I lost all this money!" Well, guess what? So did everyone else. You're pretty much where you were before, just in a world where everybody has less. It's all relative.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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07-31-2012, 09:20 AM
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#3177
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The reason today looks like years past? Across the board, rates are stagnant, or dropping (accounting tricks and lying press releases are used by firms to suggest rates are still moving upward at pre-2008 levels, but everyone knows the reality), and PPP only increases due to decreased headcount. Hence, the price of the work at all levels - small, medium, boutique, big - is a bit cheaper.
A good analogy is older folks griping in 2009 about what happened to their portfolio in 2008. "I lost all this money!" Well, guess what? So did everyone else. You're pretty much where you were before, just in a world where everybody has less. It's all relative.
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Uh, rates stagnated in 2008 and 2009, but have been increasing steadily and substantially since at just about all levels. At least round here, it's not just the surveys that say that, the rates I've seen bear it out.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
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07-31-2012, 10:54 AM
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#3178
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Uh, rates stagnated in 2008 and 2009, but have been increasing steadily and substantially since at just about all levels. At least round here, it's not just the surveys that say that, the rates I've seen bear it out.
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Again, only technically so. Cutting into that is:
1. Haircuts (At least in litigation, where businesses typically demanded 10-15% cuts, now it's 20-30%, offsetting any increase);
2. "Staff it with a partner" effect (Again, at least in litigation, the only big rates getting paid are for skilled lawyers, of which there are only so many. Whatever increase in rates you've seen, it's eclipsed several times by the loss of income accruing from firms' inability to put expensive inexperienced lawyers on cases, which clients will no longer allow.)
3. Technology/Automation of rote tasks (Discovery-as-a-profit-center is 50% less lucrative.)
I can't speak to complex transactions, but from what I've seen in litigation, lawyers at all levels - small, big, medium - fucked up the market. They charged too much and encouraged and abused too many obvious inefficiencies in the system. The result is a world where almost every business save huge ones with deep pockets, or those faced with no option but to sue or defend themselves with top flight counsel, have concluded Litigation Simply Isn't Worth It.
They're right.
Litigation firms are going to be worlds of extremes in the future. Slivers of guys who know what they're doing, and armies of lower paid paralegals, with as small a sprinkling of associates as possible in between. (Some would say it's there already.)
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 07-31-2012 at 11:01 AM..
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07-31-2012, 12:47 PM
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#3179
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Again, only technically so. Cutting into that is:
1. Haircuts (At least in litigation, where businesses typically demanded 10-15% cuts, now it's 20-30%, offsetting any increase);
2. "Staff it with a partner" effect (Again, at least in litigation, the only big rates getting paid are for skilled lawyers, of which there are only so many. Whatever increase in rates you've seen, it's eclipsed several times by the loss of income accruing from firms' inability to put expensive inexperienced lawyers on cases, which clients will no longer allow.)
3. Technology/Automation of rote tasks (Discovery-as-a-profit-center is 50% less lucrative.)
I can't speak to complex transactions, but from what I've seen in litigation, lawyers at all levels - small, big, medium - fucked up the market. They charged too much and encouraged and abused too many obvious inefficiencies in the system. The result is a world where almost every business save huge ones with deep pockets, or those faced with no option but to sue or defend themselves with top flight counsel, have concluded Litigation Simply Isn't Worth It.
They're right.
Litigation firms are going to be worlds of extremes in the future. Slivers of guys who know what they're doing, and armies of lower paid paralegals, with as small a sprinkling of associates as possible in between. (Some would say it's there already.)
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Litigation often isn't worth it and is usually a lousy way to solve disputes. But I see a bunch of areas of litigation where premium rates are happily paid - especially IP litigation and fiduciary duty litigation. I suspect Hank regularly closes the door, takes off all his clothes, and rolls around in all the cash his patent cases are generating.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
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07-31-2012, 01:42 PM
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#3180
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Patch Diva
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Winter Wonderland
Posts: 4,607
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Re: In house
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Litigation often isn't worth it and is usually a lousy way to solve disputes. But I see a bunch of areas of litigation where premium rates are happily paid - especially IP litigation and fiduciary duty litigation. I suspect Hank regularly closes the door, takes off all his clothes, and rolls around in all the cash his patent cases are generating.
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This is a mental picture I did not need.
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