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Old 01-12-2018, 07:13 PM   #3706
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
I know.

Conservatism was always the subset of the Republican party with which I most identified. When Trump came along the #NeverTrumpers were generally the ideological conservatives, and we all stopped identifying as Republican. Now the label of conservatism is soiled as well, generally by people who don't even understand the difference. There are now some references to affiliation with "traditional ideological conservatism" to distinguish it from Trumpism, but the label issue hasn't been resolved. I hate that Trump has now painted conservatives with the exact same brush of identity politics I have always abhorred on the left.
I have a lot of respect for thoughtful conservatives who have opposed Trump out of their principles. I guess many of us have been surprised by how many people who call themselves conservatives were happy to abandon the aforementioned thoughtful conservatives and go along with Trump. Almost two years ago, I thought Trump would win the Republican nomination and then lose in the general election because he would lose a significant number of Republicans who couldn't stomach him. The number just wasn't that significant, which is to say that the thoughtful people like you were a very distinct minority. Mitt Romney got 47% of the vote running against Obama, and Trump got 46.5% of the vote running against Clinton.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Trump hasn't painted, he has revealed. Not about you, but about most conservatives.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:04 PM   #3707
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Hey Sebby, Andrew Sullivan's take on #metoo seems like your cup of tea, if you haven't seen it yet. My take is that his introspection results in his sticking his head up his own ass in a tendentious misreading of people Moira Donegan and others, but ymmv.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:16 PM   #3708
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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What kills me about Trump is the damage he is doing to a core conservative message.
Isn't he the core conservative message? I mean, I have trouble telling his views apart from those of, say, Newt Gingrich. And Newt Gingrich does too.

He is clearly what Fox News' rapey hosts were thinking of over the last twenty years during their wet dreams.

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But the implication that the people there are anything other than victims of corrupt regimes (and in some cases those corrupt regimes are aided by the US at the expense of their people) and are thus s***hole people runs counter to the principle of the equality of human dignity, and is also counter to the principle of the limitlessness of human potential.
Damn girl, you got a Che poster somewhere?
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:48 PM   #3709
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Hey Sebby, Andrew Sullivan's take on #metoo seems like your cup of tea, if you haven't seen it yet. My take is that his introspection results in his sticking his head up his own ass in a tendentious misreading of people Moira Donegan and others, but ymmv.
You're correct.

But he's wrong on this: The backlash will not be public. It will take place in the HR department, in the hiring committees. It won't be right, and it won't be fair, but a campaign that convicts and sentence sthe gum thief with the same zeal it does the embezzler also isn't fair.

For every action there's a reaction? This is, generally, why people look to the French Revolution as wonderful thing, but Robespierre as an imbecile more worthy of the National Razor than the nobles preceding him.

This is what, as Sullivan aptly notes, caused a standing ovation when Welch said what needed to be said to McCarthy.

This is, of course, a reaction to Trump.

And Trump has taken a thing (many things) too far. But the reaction of serious people to him should not be something similarly overheated. The reaction should be, "This man is a fool, a sexist, and a predator. But he is also an aberration. We can and will have a post-Trump tomorrow. We will survive. 2018 will show you." And it will.

None of this is to say I don't wholeheartedly support #metoo. Men suck. Fragile, ego-driven, have to be the smartest in the room all the time... A lot of men, and particularly male lawyers, are fucking tools. I'd much rather hang out with women. They're more interesting. But despite our capacity for endless douchebaggery, even the seemingly worst of us wish women no ill. In many cases, we're just oblivious.

Movements of any kind are always a sordid mess. They can't be channeled to logic or rational circumspection. Particularly now, they must be co-opted by bullshit artists, as we saw at the Golden Globes, or expanded beyond reason. Collective catharsis is an overindulged, and highly over-rated - indeed frustratingly anti-climactic - state.

I mean, you all do realize, that's how we're all placated now. Collective exhibition, public exhortation... This is what we're given instead of actual change. This is how the revolution is televised, and sold to us, on Facebook.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:06 PM   #3710
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Isn't he the core conservative message? I mean, I have trouble telling his views apart from those of, say, Newt Gingrich. And Newt Gingrich does too.

He is clearly what Fox News' rapey hosts were thinking of over the last twenty years during their wet dreams.



Damn girl, you got a Che poster somewhere?
Trump's anathema to Buckley in this simple regard: Buckley listened. He had people on his show, he had friends, who were serious liberals. I think he grasped that conservatism, like liberalism, or progressivism, is an incomplete ideology.

Which ideology isn't? Is there a complete one? Would you want this country run exclusively by conservatives? Liberals? Progressives? Libertarians? Each is a doomsday scenario.

But Buckley's pushing up daisies. He won't be on after the evening news, talking policy with Galbraith.

And the days of Reagan and O'Neill doing deals? Do you think we'll ever see that again... in this WWE tournament of nihilists?

American conservatism coughed up any credibility it had when it got in bed with Jerry Falwell, and conceded the environment. A conservative conserves resources. And no matter how much he thinks the liberals are taking over, he doesn't get in bed with the Religious Fantasists (yes, I know, that’s redundant).
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:21 AM   #3711
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I have a lot of respect for thoughtful conservatives who have opposed Trump out of their principles. I guess many of us have been surprised by how many people who call themselves conservatives were happy to abandon the aforementioned thoughtful conservatives and go along with Trump. Almost two years ago, I thought Trump would win the Republican nomination and then lose in the general election because he would lose a significant number of Republicans who couldn't stomach him. The number just wasn't that significant, which is to say that the thoughtful people like you were a very distinct minority. Mitt Romney got 47% of the vote running against Obama, and Trump got 46.5% of the vote running against Clinton.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Trump hasn't painted, he has revealed. Not about you, but about most conservatives.
Ideological conservatives have always been a small minority in the Republican coalition. I remember writing a post for Not Bob way back in the primaries that went into detail regarding the various constituencies: The Chamber of Commerce types, the taxed-enough-already folks, the 2A single issue people, the Tea Party guys, etc. Ideological conservatives are a small group, and the main influence is that conservative academics end up at the think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, which do what they can to sway policy. Trumpism has not been kind to conservatives. Many shed the NeverTrump label and resolved to call Trump on his balls and strikes, as Trump skeptics: Gorsuch good (and I am a particular fan of TX Supreme Court Judge Don Willett who just went on the 5th Circuit, though I am sad he no longer mocks Trump on twitter). Tax reform, typical Republican, but not terrible. Obamacare repeal, a debacle. Everything else, pretty much batshit crazy.

It has impacted peoples livelihoods. You don't get the paid speaking engagements for the Trumpinistas or the Resistance crowds. You are maligned by both sides as a closet Democrat or a MAGA member.

Fundamentally, conservative principles don't change. You believe them or you don't. I think that former conservatives going MAGA is a reflection of their lack of character, not of changing conservatism, but they have without a doubt damaged the conservative label. Trump is an idiot and is utterly unaware of the reasoning or thinking behind some of his "policy". Sometimes conservatives will attempt to explain what lies behind Trump's lack of understanding, but I am not sure that does anyone any favors.

And regarding the vote count, Romney was up against Obama. I think you underestimate the portion of the Trump vote that was merely "Not Hillary". Almost everyone I know voted grudgingly for Trump. And you can see from the polling results that his "base" is actually pretty small.

Those polling results are included in this piece from Jonah Goldberg, who is possibly the most principled conservative I know:

http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file...utm_term=GFile
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:10 PM   #3712
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Trump's anathema to Buckley in this simple regard: Buckley listened. He had people on his show, he had friends, who were serious liberals. I think he grasped that conservatism, like liberalism, or progressivism, is an incomplete ideology.

Which ideology isn't? Is there a complete one? Would you want this country run exclusively by conservatives? Liberals? Progressives? Libertarians? Each is a doomsday scenario.

But Buckley's pushing up daisies. He won't be on after the evening news, talking policy with Galbraith.

And the days of Reagan and O'Neill doing deals? Do you think we'll ever see that again... in this WWE tournament of nihilists?

American conservatism coughed up any credibility it had when it got in bed with Jerry Falwell, and conceded the environment. A conservative conserves resources. And no matter how much he thinks the liberals are taking over, he doesn't get in bed with the Religious Fantasists (yes, I know, that’s redundant).
Remember, I knew Buckley. Though Buckley was not a friend of mine.

He was an insufferable prig full of deep prejudices and bigotries. But you do make a good point - he was a prig with which one could debate (not talk, there had to be rules of the game - in a conversation he had too much disdain to listen). And that is lacking today.

We will get it again when the Republican party is thoroughly reformed. They are the problem. But I don't see that happening for a while.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:14 PM   #3713
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
Ideological conservatives have always been a small minority in the Republican coalition. I remember writing a post for Not Bob way back in the primaries that went into detail regarding the various constituencies: The Chamber of Commerce types, the taxed-enough-already folks, the 2A single issue people, the Tea Party guys, etc. Ideological conservatives are a small group, and the main influence is that conservative academics end up at the think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, which do what they can to sway policy. Trumpism has not been kind to conservatives. Many shed the NeverTrump label and resolved to call Trump on his balls and strikes, as Trump skeptics: Gorsuch good (and I am a particular fan of TX Supreme Court Judge Don Willett who just went on the 5th Circuit, though I am sad he no longer mocks Trump on twitter). Tax reform, typical Republican, but not terrible. Obamacare repeal, a debacle. Everything else, pretty much batshit crazy.

It has impacted peoples livelihoods. You don't get the paid speaking engagements for the Trumpinistas or the Resistance crowds. You are maligned by both sides as a closet Democrat or a MAGA member.

Fundamentally, conservative principles don't change. You believe them or you don't. I think that former conservatives going MAGA is a reflection of their lack of character, not of changing conservatism, but they have without a doubt damaged the conservative label. Trump is an idiot and is utterly unaware of the reasoning or thinking behind some of his "policy". Sometimes conservatives will attempt to explain what lies behind Trump's lack of understanding, but I am not sure that does anyone any favors.

And regarding the vote count, Romney was up against Obama. I think you underestimate the portion of the Trump vote that was merely "Not Hillary". Almost everyone I know voted grudgingly for Trump. And you can see from the polling results that his "base" is actually pretty small.

Those polling results are included in this piece from Jonah Goldberg, who is possibly the most principled conservative I know:

http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file...utm_term=GFile
Haven't the Trumpsters taken over most of the think-tanks now? I mean, the Heritage folks I know have gone thoroughly Trump at this point.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:27 PM   #3714
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
You're correct.

But he's wrong on this: The backlash will not be public. It will take place in the HR department, in the hiring committees. It won't be right, and it won't be fair, but a campaign that convicts and sentence sthe gum thief with the same zeal it does the embezzler also isn't fair.

For every action there's a reaction? This is, generally, why people look to the French Revolution as wonderful thing, but Robespierre as an imbecile more worthy of the National Razor than the nobles preceding him.

This is what, as Sullivan aptly notes, caused a standing ovation when Welch said what needed to be said to McCarthy.

This is, of course, a reaction to Trump.

And Trump has taken a thing (many things) too far. But the reaction of serious people to him should not be something similarly overheated. The reaction should be, "This man is a fool, a sexist, and a predator. But he is also an aberration. We can and will have a post-Trump tomorrow. We will survive. 2018 will show you." And it will.

None of this is to say I don't wholeheartedly support #metoo. Men suck. Fragile, ego-driven, have to be the smartest in the room all the time... A lot of men, and particularly male lawyers, are fucking tools. I'd much rather hang out with women. They're more interesting. But despite our capacity for endless douchebaggery, even the seemingly worst of us wish women no ill. In many cases, we're just oblivious.

Movements of any kind are always a sordid mess. They can't be channeled to logic or rational circumspection. Particularly now, they must be co-opted by bullshit artists, as we saw at the Golden Globes, or expanded beyond reason. Collective catharsis is an overindulged, and highly over-rated - indeed frustratingly anti-climactic - state.

I mean, you all do realize, that's how we're all placated now. Collective exhibition, public exhortation... This is what we're given instead of actual change. This is how the revolution is televised, and sold to us, on Facebook.
So you basically don't think Republicans are serious? Huh.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:26 PM   #3715
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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So you basically don't think Republicans are serious? Huh.
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:52 AM   #3716
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/u...&nlid=32208895

When I first heard of this law I realized my grandmother must have been here without papers. Italians were "those people" not that long ago.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:12 PM   #3717
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/u...&nlid=32208895

When I first heard of this law I realized my grandmother must have been here without papers. Italians were "those people" not that long ago.
I could introduce you to some Boston Brahmins sometime who still consider Italians "those people". Irish, too.

Since Sebby's looking to rehabilitate Buckley, that man may be the only Catholic around who viewed both Irish and Italians as generally "those people" and notably below him. You'll note the liberals Buckley condescended to debate were rarely minorities or ethnics and always had gone to the best schools. The closest he came to hanging out with an actual ethnic was probably Allard Lowenstein, who was always very good at crossing the aisle and learned how to pass among the bigots at all the best schools.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:31 PM   #3718
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Those polling results are included in this piece from Jonah Goldberg, who is possibly the most principled conservative I know:

http://www.nationalreview.com/g-file...utm_term=GFile
I stopped reading after he started like this:

Quote:
Let’s start with the question of Donald Trump’s racism. I find the competition to be most offended by the offensiveness of President Trump’s fecal-crater comments to be more than a little tedious.
Yes, the most important thing to discuss on that topic is not what the President says (or the fact that he said it as he was blowing up a bipartisan deal to save DACA, which is to say that he said "shithole" in the process of holding hostage lots of people who have lived in this country their whole lives, for demands which are shifting and unclear -- making it increasingly apparent that he is screwing those people not as the means to some other goal, even a goal as tawdry as re-election, but as an end in itself) -- no, the most important thing for Goldberg is "the competition be most offended." I find no principle there at all, just a cheap rejection of other people's principles. And an obsequiousness, a commitment to anti-anti-Trumpism not because of the principles involved but despite them. It's a little reminder that the thing that really binds conservatives together is not any principle, it's opposition to the left. Goldberg could have principles if only they weren't so tedious.

eta: It's symptomatic that everyone is focused on Trump's calling other countries "shitholes," and not on the fact that only days after he held a photo op to say he would sign whatever Congress brought him, he rejected a bipartisan deal to fix DACA. A principled conservative might find a way to have a problem with that, if not for the fact (as above) that conservatives are bound together by opposition to the left, and so bipartisan deals are categorically suspect.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:40 PM   #3719
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Alexandra Petri ftw: Ladies, let’s be reasonable about #MeToo or nothing will ever be sexy again.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:40 PM   #3720
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I stopped reading after he started like this:



Yes, the most important thing to discuss on that topic is not what the President says (or the fact that he said it as he was blowing up a bipartisan deal to save DACA, which is to say that he said "shithole" in the process of holding hostage lots of people who have lived in this country their whole lives, for demands which are shifting and unclear) -- no, the most important thing for Goldberg is "the competition be most offended." I find no principle there at all, just a cheap rejection of other people's principles. And an obsequiousness, a commitment to anti-anti-Trumpism not because of the principles involved but despite them. It's a little reminder that the thing that really binds conservatives together is not any principle, it's opposition to the left. Goldberg could have principles if only they weren't so tedious.
But, but, but... the liberals!!!

Yeah, same old shit.

I've come to deeply appreciate the handful of conservatives who have sincerely been offended by Trump and who seem to be embracing and engaging with their new-found liberal friends. I'm thinking Jennifer Rubin and Bill Kristol. These are not just never-Trumpers, they are anti-Fox, and seem to hold to some notion of honesty and truth and seem to have some perspective beyond the tribalism of the lib-haters. When you look at conservatives who, two years ago, looked reasonable, there are an awful lot of them, from Abby Huntsman to Lindsay Graham, who have easily embraced Trumpism, and what they all have in common is that they are Foxified. They just don't give a shit about the truth.

The recognition that Fox and Trump are fundamentally the same is key to salvaging conservatism from the absurdity it has become. A never-Trumper still watching Fox is still a ridiculous person.
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