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Old 08-16-2017, 07:21 PM   #1651
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Stop trivializing racism and sexism by suggesting almost any act or omission stems from them.
Yes, your point is that you know better about what's real racism and sexism than the women and POC color who complain about them.

Look, I used to be like you. I specifically recall talking to fellow young associate women about their experiences at the firm and thinking (probably even saying) that I didn't think it was a gender thing. Then those things kept happening, some of them in front of me.

Now, you might not think it's a big deal that the senior partner would always ask the female associate on the team to book the conference rooms and take the notes. Or, in one guy's case, behave entirely differently (e.g., never swearing) with women in the room, thus putting barriers in the way of their relationships with him (that guy, btw, I think is a genuinely good guy who seemed to get much better on this front over time, but how many women didn't advance because they couldn't be his buddy?).

Heck, I even debated with RT on these very pages about whether it was creepy to hit on a woman you'd been hanging out with in an elevator. Eventually I realized I was being a dumbass and not listening to people who experience the world differently than I do.

So, yeah, it might seem trivial to you. It might even seem trivial to me. But hey, it's not our call because we probably don't fully understand.

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We have a board full of quasi-nude shots on this very site. All women. Does this make us sexist?
I don't usually check those out, but if I do, it's from a body-positive, sex-positive, pro-womyn viewpoint.

That's mostly a joke, but not entirely. I don't think pictures of nude women are inherently sexist. But nonetheless, yes, it probably does make us a little sexist. Are you really 100% sure you couldn't possibly be?

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I told GWNC she has a great ass.
Well, she did make it her avatar.

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Am I sexist?
Dude. Of course you are, but that has nothing to do with GWNC's great ass.

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Is she contributing to patriarchy by using the pic?
She gets to do what she wants. You and I don't get to judge her. Is this difficult for you?

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It's nuts.
It's not at all nuts. Patriarchy and misogyny and gender roles are part of the culture. We're all subject to it.

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But those of us with brains can be a bit more careful.
Yes, and the very first way we should be careful is listening to women and people of color and not substitute our judgment for theirs.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:22 PM   #1652
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Didn't Hil say his supporters were a bunch of deplorables? I took it to be a blanket attack.
She said half of his supporters are deplorable. Turns out that all of them thought she meant them.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:28 PM   #1653
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Yeah, and I'm telling you they are thinking and that it's super dismissive of you to assume they are not.



You know what, I even forgot about that part. Yes, it was a racist thing to say, which yes, is a racist act.

What you mean to say is you think it was a small act of racism that can be forgiven (joking, whatever).

I agree it was a small act of racism that can be forgotten (indeed I did) that doesn't matter much because he was already trash anyway for lots of other reasons. I don't watch and I won't watch.



No it wasn't. It wasn intended to get a laugh out of the shock of him using an antiquated, racially-charged term. There's no commentary on racists anywhere in the vicinity.



1. Paging Thurgreed (pretty sure he did not say he got it on these pages), and more importantly,

2. Where's your polling, man?



He's a sexist because he's (reportedly) regularly demeaning to women who work for/with him, according to many witnesses. He's a bigot because he regularly says bigoted things about Muslims, on the tv and everything.

I don't know that he's deeply racist, but he certainly said one racist thing.

Your thing is you think that saying something or someone is racist is to dismiss it as having any value. I see it as the racist part is something that needs to change, regardless of whatever other value that thing has. We're literally all at least a little racist.

You value Maher (as yet another display of your appalling taste - that program is unwatchable regardless of your view on the man himself), thus he can't be racist. And you're calling other people dimwits?



The more you talk, the more it's clear that you know nothing at all about the people involved in social justice work. I have barely any insight into myself, but if you stop and listen to people, you might realize how clueless you are.
I don't know jack about social justice work. It is itself a gross over-expansion, a grievance culture attractive to suggestible sorts like you.

What I would like to see redressed is racism and sexism, being real tangible evils worth attempting to eradicate, as opposed to feel good movements packed with way too many young, impressionable and yes, white, sorts than is comforatable (or confers credibility). I'd also like to see wealth inequality addressed. Bu that's a different conversation.

Racism and sexism can be handled. Social Justice is a fluff catch-all concept that dilutes the attack on sexism and racism. It's not the answer. It hinders solution.

Unlike you, I've actually dealt directly (state crim work, not just fed) and in policy, with racism. I'll tell you this. It's a hell of a lot more effective to say, "Our justice system is racist. They shot a black kid in his car next to his girlfriend and watched him bleed to death. They used minorities as cash machines via fines and court fees to shore up the fucking city budget in Ferguson... Fact" to a powerful white conservative than it is to say, "We need 'social justice' now!"

Again, you have good intentions, and you prove the adage about the road to hell.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:38 PM   #1654
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Yes, your point is that you know better about what's real racism and sexism than the women and POC color who complain about them.

Look, I used to be like you. I specifically recall talking to fellow young associate women about their experiences at the firm and thinking (probably even saying) that I didn't think it was a gender thing. Then those things kept happening, some of them in front of me.

Now, you might not think it's a big deal that the senior partner would always ask the female associate on the team to book the conference rooms and take the notes. Or, in one guy's case, behave entirely differently (e.g., never swearing) with women in the room, thus putting barriers in the way of their relationships with him (that guy, btw, I think is a genuinely good guy who seemed to get much better on this front over time, but how many women didn't advance because they couldn't be his buddy?).

Heck, I even debated with RT on these very pages about whether it was creepy to hit on a woman you'd been hanging out with in an elevator. Eventually I realized I was being a dumbass and not listening to people who experience the world differently than I do.

So, yeah, it might seem trivial to you. It might even seem trivial to me. But hey, it's not our call because we probably don't fully understand.



I don't usually check those out, but if I do, it's from a body-positive, sex-positive, pro-womyn viewpoint.

That's mostly a joke, but not entirely. I don't think pictures of nude women are inherently sexist. But nonetheless, yes, it probably does make us a little sexist. Are you really 100% sure you couldn't possibly be?



Well, she did make it her avatar.



Dude. Of course you are, but that has nothing to do with GWNC's great ass.



She gets to do what she wants. You and I don't get to judge her. Is this difficult for you?



It's not at all nuts. Patriarchy and misogyny and gender roles are part of the culture. We're all subject to it.



Yes, and the very first way we should be careful is listening to women and people of color and not substitute our judgment for theirs.
You're eating the elephant. Tackle sexism and racism head-on and you'll have all the allies in the world on both sides. Tie those into a broad, amorphous movement and you'll play right into the Right's hands.

I know the playbook. I've heard it. The Right salivates at the idea of "social justice" movements. They're handcuffed on serious factually supported charges of sexism and racism.

We're actually largely on the same side. I'm simply advocating a well aimed pair of pistols instead of a shotgun.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:40 PM   #1655
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Didn't Hil say his supporters were a bunch of deplorables? I took it to be a blanket attack.
Here are some selections from the speech:

Quote:
And there's so much more than I find deplorable in his campaign: the way that he cozies up to white supremacists, makes racist attacks, calls women pigs, mocks people with disabilities -- you can't make this up. He wants to round up and deport 16 million people, calls our military a disaster. And every day he says something else which I find so personally offensive, but also dangerous...

I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.
She said about half of his supporters were racist, sexist homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic.

Yeah, that doesn't sound too far off. Stupid thing to say, but probably true.

Then she said some (not many or most, but some) are "irredeemable".

Some may agree with her, but frankly that's a pretty Republican and unChristian sentiment, and should never come out of the mouth of a Democrat. We hope for redemption, and criticize Republicans for dismissing large portions of the society.

I don't think it was a blanket attack, unless you never pull your blanket above your waist, but it wasn't a good day.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:22 PM   #1656
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Somebody catch me up - what did I miss?
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:35 PM   #1657
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Somebody catch me up - what did I miss?
I think Thurgreed is actually sick of arguing with Sebby. Can you imagine?
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:05 AM   #1658
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Somebody catch me up - what did I miss?
We all love each other and agree on everything here now, except Sebby who tries to be different but just makes an ass of himself.

And the world is falling apart.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:05 AM   #1659
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
We all love each other and agree on everything here now, except Sebby who tries to be different but just makes an ass of himself.

And the world is falling apart.
Oh stop. I just got new shoes in the mail (nice mocs), and they still sell my favorite rose. Laphroaig: Still In Business.

So some J Crew Nazis marched. They did it in Skokie; the Republic persisted. (Imagine if we'd had the Internet then!) And Mike Pence will soon be President.

Are things optimal? Hell no. But your grand solution - elect a Clinton - was pretty weak sauce. This tawdry freak show stuff would probably have been more lurid under her.

And I'll pin your "we all agree" for future back and fourths about this place being an echo chamber.

I'll leave you topping a line from Dr. Dre: "What's the difference between Me and you?" I've got an original thought. You're 70% someone else's talking points.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:26 AM   #1660
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I don't know jack about social justice work.
This is where anyone with even a tiny bit of self-awareness would have stopped typing.

Quote:
It is itself a gross over-expansion, a grievance culture attractive to suggestible sorts like you.
Which groups of people seeking equality do you believe are undeserving? Or are you, as usual, just reacting to words you don't understand? Hint: It's shorthand for a bunch of specific movements, not a rallying cry.

Quote:
What I would like to see redressed is racism and sexism, being real tangible evils worth attempting to eradicate
So queer and native people, immigrants and Muslims and everyone else can just fuck off then?

Quote:
I'd also like to see wealth inequality addressed. Bu that's a different conversation.
It's not. Lots of people are opposed to greater efforts to combat inequality exactly because they think it means giving money to black people. Heck, Reagan ran on the idea.

Last edited by Adder; 08-17-2017 at 11:36 AM..
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:30 AM   #1661
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
They're handcuffed on serious factually supported charges of sexism and racism.
This is wildly naive. The main response to "stop shooting unarmed black people" has been "blue lives matter."

The good news is that pretty much nobody is out advocating for amorphous social justice, so your rant has been super productive.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:49 AM   #1662
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I don't think it was a blanket attack, unless you never pull your blanket above your waist, but it wasn't a good day.
A lot of people are much more offended by the idea of being accused of bigotry than they are by bigotry itself.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:30 PM   #1663
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We all love each other and agree on everything here now, except Sebby who tries to be different but just makes an ass of himself.

And the world is falling apart.
It really is, because I agree with Steve Bannon on something -- that "there's no military solution" to North Korea.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:33 PM   #1664
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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it really is, because i agree with steve bannon on something -- that "there's no military solution" to north korea.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:47 PM   #1665
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Oh stop. I just got new shoes in the mail (nice mocs), and they still sell my favorite rose. Laphroaig: Still In Business.

So some J Crew Nazis marched. They did it in Skokie; the Republic persisted. (Imagine if we'd had the Internet then!) And Mike Pence will soon be President.

Are things optimal? Hell no. But your grand solution - elect a Clinton - was pretty weak sauce. This tawdry freak show stuff would probably have been more lurid under her.

And I'll pin your "we all agree" for future back and fourths about this place being an echo chamber.

I'll leave you topping a line from Dr. Dre: "What's the difference between Me and you?" I've got an original thought. You're 70% someone else's talking points.
See Club? Consider yourself updated. How is it going with you?
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