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Old 08-21-2017, 11:30 AM   #1726
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: From the Right Wing Circle Jerk...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
If White Nationalist parades aren't overly dramatic exhibitions, nothing is. And these loons are the Right's useful idiots of the moment, intended to bring out the useful idiots of Antifa, and whip up more identity politics arguments on the Left.

The GOP wants to bring out the most shrill voices of the Left to whip up the anti-anti-Trump voters. Exactly as Bannon noted in his interview with the American Spectator.

By the way, it's working. People in the middle aren't picking a side (because neither is offering much in the way of actual policy, and the middle only really cares about the economy and market, which are doing okay for the moment). They're checking out, disgusted with Trump. But also disgusted with the Resistance. It's exhausting to watch for most people, and the default proposition (pretty accurate) is, "Both sides are owned by the same people, and while the man at the top is a huge embarrassment, both are full of shit... and deserve each other." This voter won't punish an R in 2018 because of Trump. He'll view the Trump/Resistance debacle as a freakshow and vote his pocketbook, which choice will be, "don't fuck with a decent economy... vote an incumbent."

Ds won't lose seats as anticipated, but they won't gain any, either. Maybe some trades here and there, with an R losing in one place and a D losing in another. Largely a wash, if all things remain relatively the same through the mid-terms. Which they are likely to do. If the events of this Presidency haven't caused a massive economic shock thus far, I don't think anything this nut does will ever do so.

(By the way, I do not think this is a healthy economy, for many reasons I've previously stated. But relative to where it's been over the last ten years, given the market gain a lot of people [particularly the old] mistake for the actual economy, and the absence of volatility despite crazy world events, it is easy to perceive the economy is on solid footing.)
Democrats didn't make any gains in 2006 because people were disgusted with Code Pink.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:34 AM   #1727
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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A lot of people are much more offended by the idea of being accused of bigotry than they are by bigotry itself.
Correct. And people completely switch off no matter what the approach when they are asked to address whatever level of bigotry they have. Hell, apparently being asked to consider one's prejudices drives one into the arms of outright racists.

TM
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:35 AM   #1728
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Really, Hank? Come on. You're better than this.

"I know there are only 60 days left to make our case -- and don't get complacent, don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, well, he's done this time. We are living in a volatile political environment. You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America."

"But the other basket -- and I know this because I see friends from all over America here -- I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas -- as well as, you know, New York and California -- but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

She's been proven to be prescient.

TM
Unfortunately, she also proved that the politics of this matter more than the truth. What Hillary said was pretty reasonable. It immediately got twisted into a fodder for white grievance. Many more people are familiar with Sebby's version than with what she actually said, and the conventional wisdom is that it was her fault for making a gaffe.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:37 AM   #1729
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Your example disproves your point.

Bill Maher said something pretty stupid. He was taken to task for it. Instead of turning himself and his show into a platform for racism and turning toward Trump, he had people on to explain to him why he was wrong. He sat their and listened and, it would seem, changed his behavior based on that give and take.

If he did decide to throw up his hands and say, "Okay, fuck it. I'm racist! I now support Trump," your argument is that those who criticized him would be to blame for that? That's beyond stupid.

TM
Bill Maher is a unique example. I only cited him because those who said he was a racist were clearly reactive, and had no clue about his history of actually being a staunch proponent of BLM, among many other causes supporting the Black community.

Maher responded smartly and genuinely. Because he's a complex thinker.

Your average conservative Rust Belt swing voter is not Bill Maher. When you suggest he's a racist or sexist based on his "traditional" culture, or he's a bigot because he supports some bathroom use bill, he doesn't wonder how you reached that conclusion. To him, those are fighting words. And he picks a side -- Trump's side.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:39 AM   #1730
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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There's a ratcheting up of craziness that's exhausting moderates. That will inure to the benefit of incumbents, which is not good for the Dems in 2018.
Moderate Jane: Politics is crazy now! Nazis marching in streets, nuclear war with New Zealand, compelled open-carry on college campuses -- it's exhausting!

Moderate Dick: I'm exhausted by it too, Jane. The craziness just keeps ratcheting up. That's why I'm going to vote for more of the same this November.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:46 AM   #1731
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Moderate Jane: Politics is crazy now! Nazis marching in streets, nuclear war with New Zealand, compelled open-carry on college campuses -- it's exhausting!

Moderate Dick: I'm exhausted by it too, Jane. The craziness just keeps ratcheting up. That's why I'm going to vote for more of the same this November.
Moderate Dick and Jane: Let's vote our pocketbooks.

It's the common man's civic equivalent of "I'll be gone, you'll be gone." When the issues and rhetoric are nuts, just Protect Your Money.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:57 AM   #1732
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Unfortunately, she also proved that the politics of this matter more than the truth. What Hillary said was pretty reasonable. It immediately got twisted into a fodder for white grievance. Many more people are familiar with Sebby's version than with what she actually said, and the conventional wisdom is that it was her fault for making a gaffe.
That I remember it wrong makes it clear it was a gaffe. Politics doesn't go over in a paragraph like T quotes, we get one or two word slogans. She couldn't see that would be a excerpted blurb?
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:06 PM   #1733
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Re: From the Right Wing Circle Jerk...

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Democrats didn't make any gains in 2006 because people were disgusted with Code Pink.
Facebook didn't allow the public to have a profile until September of 2006.

You can check the dates on which Twitter, Townhall, RedState, and the like were established.

Fox averaged 1.3 mil primetime in 2006. It did 2.4 mil primetime in 2016.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:09 PM   #1734
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Unfortunately, she also proved that the politics of this matter more than the truth. What Hillary said was pretty reasonable. It immediately got twisted into a fodder for white grievance. Many more people are familiar with Sebby's version than with what she actually said, and the conventional wisdom is that it was her fault for making a gaffe.
I don't have a "version" of what Hillary said. Frankly, she was correct. Maybe her percentage was a bit high, but it was a fair assessment.

Was it smart to say that? Fuck no. But I don't recall ever paraphrasing her on that, let alone doing so inaccurately.

I liked the statement. I also liked Obama's "guns and religion" statement.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:28 PM   #1735
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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No. But they can all take a page from the gay rights movement. That is the template for how equality is achieved today. In that instance, smart people targeted certain states, got laws passed, anticipated a SCOTUS challenge and framed the issue as one of basic human dignity. There was a tight, coherent argument: Gay people stand in an identical position to straight people, and deserve all the same rights in terms of ability to have a state sanctioned marriage. They had the science and law on their side, their advocacy was simple and compelling, and their strategy was shrewd.
Actually, this is not how it happened. One of the organizations I was involved in brought in Marc Solomon to talk about the Freedom to Marry Campaign. His speech was specifically about how one could apply the lessons they learned to other movements (including BLM).

What he said was the tight, coherent, logical, rights-based argument was a complete loser. They tried it again and again and lost for years and couldn't understand why. What they had to do was send people out to talk to people and what they found was the arguments that worked were the amorphous ones that had more to do with pointing out that gay people actually love each other and want the ability to make that love official. The next step was to engage people who are actually gay to actually visit the local politicians to talk to them about why they deserve the same rights. It is much harder to vote against the people you see every day (and who you may not have known were gay). He gave very specific examples, one of which was of how they researched a key politician and found out that one of his teachers who influenced him most was retired and lived closed by. She is gay and they had her pay him a visit to talk about her relationships. She almost managed to change his mind. The next step was explaining to him that they had the means to fund his next primary opponent who would vote the way they wanted.

In short, a logical approach with a clear, airtight argument didn't mean as much on the march to marriage equality.

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All of those same strategies and arguments can be applied to BLM. In fact, it might even be easier to effect criminal justice reform.
What?

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A huge change in sentiment, and elected officials making policy, could be reached by simply giving felons the right to vote. Six million felons do not have that right today. A targeted effort to give them back the vote (which, by the way, Rand Paul and Rick Santorum and other principled Rs support) could provide the difference in a Presidential election, and numerous state elections that have a direct impact on policing and justice administration.
You realize, of course, that the reason why they don't have the vote is so that they can't affect elections, right?

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Bundling all these causes together and protesting, or being drug into street skirmishes with Nazi morons, is not effective. Calling every slight racism is not effective.
You've said three different things. You are lumping a bunch of different things into your argument because then you can dismiss it all. When Adder says you're taking a Fox pundit approach to this stuff, this is what he means.

People protest unfair treatment. The fact that many people gather and have many complaints may not effect immediate change on every issue, but these expressions of anger have surely been heard. It's partly cathartic and it also demonstrates to the victims of injustice that they are supported. Just because you don't care about this shit doesn't mean it has no value. I really wonder what you'd be saying about the Civil Rights Movement in the Sixties if you had been alive then.

Opposing Nazis on the streets isn't effective? You are joking, correct? You don't think what happened this past week has had an effect on this country? You think it would have been better to have them march unopposed? Municipalities all over the country have taken down monuments celebrating the Confederacy as a direct result. Racists have been exposed to white people who thought it wasn't a big problem, including the ones in The White House. Take a look at the photo of the Boston protests. The right wing assholes fit in that structure. The anti-fascist protestors dwarf them. In Boston.



Finally, stop pitching this "calling every slight racism" bullshit. No one is doing that. You are being dismissive because you purposefully do not want to discuss the effects of racism on any level besides that which costs people their lives. I'm sick of that shit. And as the co-chair of my firm's diversity committee, which addresses these types of issues regularly, we see partners like you all the time. Thank god they are a dying breed and that so many are starting to be open to gaining an understanding of how they can improve and how certain things they do are based on racial bias (which is not the same as being a racist). Just being able to have a discussion like that without assholes completely focused on not being called, "racist," is progress.*

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You don't frame it as fighting "inequality." That's the language that lumps you in with the Occupy Sorts and grievance fetishists. You frame the argument as "Justice Reform," and you describe the problem accurately: "We are jailing and killing black people in what is clearly a racist justice system. We jail more people per capita than China. This is a grotesque failing on par with those addressed during the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, it is part of the Civil Rights Movement. For some reason, we failed to adequately address it then. We need to do so now." Those are facts. People cannot argue with facts. And the Right wingers who'll try will fail as badly as the dimwits who argued against gay marriage on the basis it violated their "religious liberty."
Maybe you're not paying attention, but just because you see people fighting general injustice and inequality at a rally does not mean that there aren't movements that focus specifically on the justice system attacking the problems in just the manner you describe. If your argument is that white people who have to experience a general complaint about inequality when they drive past a rally or flip past one on television no longer have the capacity to think about specific issues in a thoughtful way, then we're all fucked more than I thought.

TM

*Jesus, what a fucking fight this has been, by the way. White people close their ears completely when you talk about racial bias, which almost everyone has because they think you're accusing them of being racist.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:34 PM   #1736
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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If you're working towards a rhetorical strategy to bring him around, you haven't quite found it yet.
Now you're being ridiculous. There is no argument that will bring Sebby around on anything. Hell, I continue to bang my head against the wall, but even I know this.

TM
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:39 PM   #1737
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Moderate Dick and Jane: Let's vote our pocketbooks.

It's the common man's civic equivalent of "I'll be gone, you'll be gone." When the issues and rhetoric are nuts, just Protect Your Money.
If Dick has a pocketbook, we are truly living in a liberal America, and the conservative culture war is a rearguard action.

At any rate, when it comes to explicating the mores and propensities of the American common man, I am starting to doubt that you have any unusual insight.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:56 PM   #1738
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I don't have a "version" of what Hillary said.
Sorry, that was Hank.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:57 PM   #1739
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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The Ds keep losing and wondering why. You can blame Russia, voter suppression, etc.
You are exhausting. Truly.

I'm not sure anyone is wondering why Trump won at this point. People are weighing the importance of many reasons. And yeah, voter suppression is a big one. Russian bots on social media? I don't know. Racism, sexism, xenophobia, Islamophobia? Sure. You're stuck on the left pushing people away by identifying issues related to race or identity or whatever as dispositive. The fact that you can look at someone who jumps into the arms of a small-minded racist who doesn't know shit because they don't like being called out on their actual racism and blame the person calling them out is sickening.

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But when a critic says, "Hey, here's how your party fucking up," it might do well to listen instead of assuming him an enemy.
What the fuck are you talking about? I am disagreeing with you and telling you why. Is that how you read posts that disagree with you? If so, you have serious problems.

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My liberal friends (it's odd to say this, as I'm socially farther left than most of them) and right friends (odd to sy that too, as I'm economically pretty solidly right) can get pissed I'm not "on the team," and call me a moral relativist, and that's true (I kind of am one). But the points I've made? They're worth considering.
You need to stop telling us about your liberal friends and your right wing friends. We all know that you exaggerate their experiences and sometimes outright make them up to facilitate your arguments. Do you think you're the only person who has friends from both sides? Do you hear anyone else employing this as a strategy to debate anything? Retire it.

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Because I am checked out. My sole interest right now in every debate with a Right or Left person is to find a hole in their argument and explain why they ought to engage the argument in a more circumspect fashion that might actually effect a solution to a problem. That I actually find interesting.
Typical Sebby bullshit.

TM
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:58 PM   #1740
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I took her to a supermarket. I don't know why.

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If Dick has a pocketbook, we are truly living in a liberal America, and the conservative culture war is a rearguard action.

At any rate, when it comes to explicating the mores and propensities of the American common man, I am starting to doubt that you have any unusual insight.
Ty, don't you know that Sebby just wants to live like the common people?
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