Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

See, you are looking at this like trump, as a ratings game.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of power and leverage. Yesterday, the Dems, as the minority party in both houses, had some. Today, it has none. That's it. It isn't going to get more with less power.

This is about states starting to shut down CHIP programs and kids not getting healthcare.

Yes, which is why both parties backed CHIP, and why CHIP wasn't a win yesterday. CHIP is what McConnell held hostage so he could give Dems nothing, and use to deny that the shutdown was only about immigration.

This is about people getting deported.

Yes, and every day that passes more people's DACA status is expiring, which some committee hearings and a vote in three weeks doesn't change.

In both cases, Chuck and Co. are minimizing the damage despite being in the minority.

So far they've gotten zero mitigation on DACA. Nothing.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

And people who don't know someone who is in danger of having their whole life ripped apart because of this doesn't care as much as those of us who do.

This is really it. To some degree, it seems like something amenable to a gay rights style "coming out" movement, but that's asking vulnerable people to make themselves more vulnerable.

Nonetheless, should things go as Stephen Miller wants them to, a lot of people are going to learn about the undocumented people around them and start caring.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This will never be a game Democrats can win without educating a public about issues they clearly don't care about. Everyone (who isn't a Tea Party psycho) is for helping children. But Republicans will actually let funding expire, throwing hundreds of thousands of families into chaos in order to get what they want. That's a game Democrats (or anyone with any kind of compassion) will always lose. Because we will fund a fucking wall if it means not actively shitting all over sick kids. Same with DACA. Same with absolutely any bill that actually helps people.

It's a losing proposition. That's why Dems are always brought in to clean up after Republicans. People only realize the Republican Smash 'N' Grab approach to government after everything is completely fucking broken. And they immediately forget who broke everything the first time someone says "Your taxes are going to lazy Blacks and Mexicans."

TM

Yup, and especially when the Dems act like the GOP is still acting in good faith when it isn't.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yup, and especially when the Dems act like the GOP is still acting in good faith when it isn't.

Do you really think that? Come on, dude.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Do you really think that? Come on, dude.

Which statement do you think is incredible? Surely not that the GOP isn't acting in good faith, that's been clear since Obama was elected.

That the Dems are acting like the GOP is acting in good faith? How else do they take a "deal" that's just Mitch McConnell's word that he'll let some form of a bill be voted on?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

Which statement do you think is incredible? Surely not that the GOP isn't acting in good faith, that's been clear since Obama was elected.

That the Dems are acting like the GOP is acting in good faith? How else do they take a "deal" that's just Mitch McConnell's word that he'll let some form of a bill be voted on?

Do you think the Dems in the Senate don't have a good understanding of what they're dealing with with McConnell & the Rs? Really?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Do you think the Dems in the Senate don't have a good understanding of what they're dealing with with McConnell & the Rs? Really?

No, I think they don't know how to counter it and keep thinking they will get points for playing by the rules, when they haven't.

ETA: I had this argument, explicitly, with people over Gorsuch. People were literally arguing that we couldn't filibuster Gorsuch because then we wouldn't have it to use against the next guy, who might be worse. The reality was that we didn't have it to use against Gorsuch anyway - McConnell was going to do away with it the first time we used it. The game wasn't stopping Gorsuch, which we didn't have the power to do. It was showing some backbone and some values so that you can do better in future elections.

This game had at least some chance to actually win on the merits, but the point still remains demonstrating a difference in values between the Dems and the alternative. We stand up for Dreamers because it's the right thing to do and we're willing to do everything we can for it.

They can't make that claim right now, and, how this most likely plays out - because McConnell has the power to cause that outcome - they aren't going to be able to.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I think you are wrong about this. I think there are a substantial number of people out there who say, sure, it would be nice if kids didn't have to die, but I take care of my own and the rest isn't my problem, don't tax me to pay for it.

Either way, the principle is the same. Repubs are okay with using programs that people really need as a bargaining chip to get the absolute bullshit they want. How do you negotiate with someone who is willing to let children die in order to fund a stupid and pointless wall on our southern border? Call their bluff? Because that results in dead kids, families destroyed, and less government, and the last they consider a win.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes, which is why both parties backed CHIP, and why CHIP wasn't a win yesterday. CHIP is what McConnell held hostage so he could give Dems nothing, and use to deny that the shutdown was only about immigration.

Both parties back CHIP and the government's continued operation, so you could equally say that the Republicans got nothing either. And you would be right. The only thing the shutdown accomplished was to make the Republicans and Trump look a little less competent and in control than they did, a pretty minor accomplishment that will have largely faded from everyone's minds soon. The moral: Taking hostages doesn't work unless you're prepared to kill the hostages.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

This is really it. To some degree, it seems like something amenable to a gay rights style "coming out" movement, but that's asking vulnerable people to make themselves more vulnerable.

Nonetheless, should things go as Stephen Miller wants them to, a lot of people are going to learn about the undocumented people around them and start caring.

I think this is basically wrong, in the sense that most people support extending DACA and don't want Dreamers deported, and those who feel otherwise affirmatively revel in the human suffering. It's not a question of ignorance.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

ETA: I had this argument, explicitly, with people over Gorsuch. People were literally arguing that we couldn't filibuster Gorsuch because then we wouldn't have it to use against the next guy, who might be worse. The reality was that we didn't have it to use against Gorsuch anyway - McConnell was going to do away with it the first time we used it. The game wasn't stopping Gorsuch, which we didn't have the power to do. It was showing some backbone and some values so that you can do better in future elections.

This seems like really bad support for the argument that Senate Democrats don't get it, since they did in fact filibuster Gorsuch.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think this is basically wrong, in the sense that most people support extending DACA and don't want Dreamers deported, and those who feel otherwise affirmatively revel in the human suffering. It's not a question of ignorance.

Did you not see the poll that asked Americans if it's worth shutting down government in order to save DACA?

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...daca-provision

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Repubs are okay with using programs that people really need as a bargaining chip to get the absolute bullshit they want. How do you negotiate with someone who is willing to let children die in order to fund a stupid and pointless wall on our southern border? Call their bluff? Because that results in dead kids, families destroyed, and less government, and the last they consider a win.

This, too, is not quite right. Republicans basically wanted to re-up CHIP and they finally did. They were nonetheless hoping to use it as a hostage to get something out of the Democrats, which failed -- all they got was an end to the shutdown, which is something the Democrats wanted as much as they did.

By contrast, the problem with DACA is that a bunch of Republicans affirmatively want to inflict suffering on Dreamers. It's a feature, not a bug. And the ones like this are a minority, but they are much more passionate about inflicting this suffering than most of the voters who feel the other way. It's hard to negotiate with them because they aren't bluffing.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Did you not see the poll that asked Americans if it's worth shutting down government in order to save DACA?

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...daca-provision

TM

I had not seen that. I think that's combining the people who want to see DACA ended with the people who want to see it continued but who don't feel that strongly. No one really wants to see the government shut down.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think this is basically wrong, in the sense that most people support extending DACA and don't want Dreamers deported, and those who feel otherwise affirmatively revel in the human suffering. It's not a question of ignorance.

The issue is depth of support. Lots of people are lightly committed to helping the Dreamers.