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Old 08-09-2017, 09:05 PM   #1501
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
My two cents: POTUS is interested in posturing and how he appears to a domestic audience, not in changing anything about our relationship with North Korea. He doesn't want anyone to attack anything, unless he can do it in a way that has no repercussions (e.g., bombing Syria -- and the pushback there from Russia may have been something he didn't expect).
2. No one's attacking NK. It's the most cynical of charades. I don't even bother reading about this stupid story because there is only one course of action with NK: Sanction it to cripple the ruling party as much as possible, and when Kim saber rattles (as he'll predictably do every now and again when the sanctions imperil his rule), relax sanctions just enough to shut him up. Rinse, repeat until 30 or so cycles are completed and he ruling party is weakened enough that it collapses.

It's the only thing you can do with these regimes. It's what we're doing with Iran. And what we should have continued doing with Iraq.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:14 PM   #1502
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
So question- lots of big brain libs on FB are posting this thing from a former Obama explaining how we have a really good option to taking down Kim. It implies this is all the Trump admin needs to do.

If so, why didn't Obama do that?
We had a similar great opportunity to take down Hussein. Worked out beautifully, Rummy.

Now, of course, unlike Iraq, where we were most certainly not embraced as liberators by all, NK's citizens would probably welcome intervention. However, there is that little issue of a regime with nothing left to lose nuking Seoul.

Kim wants food for the angry masses, or money, or a train full of Chevas Regal. Send it to him via the traditional back channels and he'll go away for 36 months.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:19 PM   #1503
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by notcasesensitive View Post
Voting for a person whose own VP candidate said people should vote for Hillary?

(Yes, I'm totally Wonking here.)
Did I have an obligation to vote for Hillary? Because it's only if one believes that, and is willing to say it, that one can argue I "robbed" her of a vote.

I'd like somebody to just write it: "You had an obligation to vote for Hillary."
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:22 PM   #1504
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Did I have an obligation to vote for Hillary? Because it's only if one believes that, and is willing to say it, that one can argue I "robbed" her of a vote.

I'd like somebody to just write it: "You had an obligation to vote for Hillary."
I'll say it: you did. Just like the people of Louisiana had an obligation to vote for Edwin Edwards over David Duke.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:33 AM   #1505
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Re: The Google Manifesto

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Yes, white men are the only people who lie on resumes.

The stuff you wrote above? Stop. Just stop. It's dumb, and it's beneath you.
You do realize I was simply ridiculing what Damore wrote, right? If you missed that, might want to adjust the meds a bit again.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:35 AM   #1506
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I'll say it: you did. Just like the people of Louisiana had an obligation to vote for Edwin Edwards over David Duke.
Well, except for the ones who supported David Duke, right?
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:41 AM   #1507
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Now, of course, unlike Iraq, where we were most certainly not embraced as liberators by all, NK's citizens would probably welcome intervention.
Why do you say this? Has someone with a lot of knowledge of North Korea indicated they think this?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:09 AM   #1508
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I'll say it: you did. Just like the people of Louisiana had an obligation to vote for Edwin Edwards over David Duke.
Credit to you for having the balls to say it. I can respect that.

But let's say you and I lived in WV, in an economic dead zone. Couldn't you make the same argument to me about Donald Trump? "You have a duty to vote for him because he's the only choice that might help us."

The "obligation" you note changes based on location, background, socioeconomic status, etc. It's relative, based on a laddering of priorities that changes as one moves around the country.

An "obligation" so relative (unless you believe a buffoon like Trump an existential threat to democracy, which is a hysterical view) isn't really an obligation. It's a person with one set of priorities telling someone else who might have a different set what to do.

Trump hasn't changed my life much, and nor would've Hillary. I didn't owe the Rust Belt Forgotten a duty to vote for Trump, and I didn't owe any of my neighbors a duty to vote for Hillary.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:13 AM   #1509
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Credit to you for having the balls to say it. I can respect that.

But let's say you and I lived in WV, in an economic dead zone. Couldn't you make the same argument to me about Donald Trump? "You have a duty to vote for him because he's the only choice that might help us."

The "obligation" you note changes based on location, background, socioeconomic status, etc. It's relative, based on a laddering of priorities that changes as one moves around the country.

An "obligation" so relative (unless you believe a buffoon like Trump an existential threat to democracy, which is a hysterical view) isn't really an obligation. It's a person with one set of priorities telling someone else who might have a different set what to do.

Trump hasn't changed my life much, and nor would've Hillary. I didn't owe the Rust Belt Forgotten a duty to vote for Trump, and I didn't owe any of my neighbors a duty to vote for Hillary.
I think the "you" that NB was talking about was you- Sebby- not a hypo Pa voter. Baked into that is a belief that you- Sebby- must have realized Trump was a lunatic, and that Hil was the only sane choice, although one you might find distasteful. But if you truly see them sides of the same coin, then you had no "duty."
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:17 AM   #1510
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Why do you say this? Has someone with a lot of knowledge of North Korea indicated they think this?
I'm just guessing that people who regularly live through famines, have assorted gulags polka dotting their country, and know life is far better in a place as close as SK, would be receptive.

Iraq was not as bad a place to live as NK. Hussein was a despot, but there was some real representative democracy (of a sort), Iraqis were free to travel, they could read foreign news, and there was a functioning economy. Also, a big part of the reason we were not greeted positively in Iraq was our own stupid decision to alienate the Baathists and dismantle the military. Had Paul Bremmer not made awful those decisions at the outset, post-invasion Iraq may have moved forward on a much different trajectory.

But yeah -- we'd probably fuck up a NK invasion as well, and find some way to make them hate us.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:31 AM   #1511
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I think the "you" that NB was talking about was you- Sebby- not a hypo Pa voter. Baked into that is a belief that you- Sebby- must have realized Trump was a lunatic, and that Hil was the only sane choice, although one you might find distasteful. But if you truly see them sides of the same coin, then you had no "duty."
I was referring to myself. It's always about me.

Pre-election, I was accosted by Right leaners about how Trump was the only acceptable choice because of the Supreme Court. There are a lot of persuasive arguments there. Garland seemed fine to me, but the possibility of additional appointments creating a long term left-leaning court was disturbing. (I'm of the belief we're already brutally overlawyered, over-regulated, and it's bad both culturally and economically.)

I was also accosted by Left leaners making the argument Trump was insane. this was also persuasive, for all of the obvious reasons. I also happen to detest the man. He's bad taste embodied -- everything embarrassing and wrong about our culture in a nutshell.

In the end, neither view was persuasive enough to sway me. Both were, and remain, unacceptable candidates. But I do see a silver lining with Trump. He's such a hot mess, he may be a catalyst for some real reform. He shows the rot of the two party system. He demonstrates the need for serious adults to take the wheel away from ideologues and career politicians.

I don't want a career politician like Hillary to run anything. Nor do I want a buffoonish "businessman" in charge. I'd prefer a competent, measured businessperson with a bit of political experience in charge.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:34 AM   #1512
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Re: The Google Manifesto

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You do realize I was simply ridiculing what Damore wrote, right? If you missed that, might want to adjust the meds a bit again.
My bad. I didn't pay enough attention to what he wrote to catch that. When I got to the "female neuroticism" generalizations in his manifesto, it became clear I was reading nothing but Asperger's ramblings and started skimming.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:52 AM   #1513
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Re: The Google Manifesto

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My bad. I didn't pay enough attention to what he wrote to catch that. When I got to the "female neuroticism" generalizations in his manifesto, it became clear I was reading nothing but Asperger's ramblings and started skimming.
Figured as much, but you gave me a chance to vent some aggression. Thanks for that.
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:00 PM   #1514
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm just guessing that people who regularly live through famines, have assorted gulags polka dotting their country, and know life is far better in a place as close as SK, would be receptive.

Iraq was not as bad a place to live as NK. Hussein was a despot, but there was some real representative democracy (of a sort), Iraqis were free to travel, they could read foreign news, and there was a functioning economy. Also, a big part of the reason we were not greeted positively in Iraq was our own stupid decision to alienate the Baathists and dismantle the military. Had Paul Bremmer not made awful those decisions at the outset, post-invasion Iraq may have moved forward on a much different trajectory.

But yeah -- we'd probably fuck up a NK invasion as well, and find some way to make them hate us.
I have no idea myself; I don't know much about NK. But it's possible for people to hate many others, so just because they have good reason to hate their government doesn't mean we should assume they have some latent fondness for us. One's enemy's enemy is not, contrary to Confucius, always one's friend. But I have trouble believing a bunch of people from across an ocean can ever be seen as "liberators".

Any sensible person with a basic knowledge of the Middle East knew we were wading into a swamp with the invasion, all you need to do is mutter "Sykes Picot" and you know you've got a problem. And the more you know the worse it seems. Even in retrospect, I can't figure out what the mission was, something we should have known going in.
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:01 PM   #1515
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Credit to you for having the balls to say it. I can respect that.

But let's say you and I lived in WV, in an economic dead zone. Couldn't you make the same argument to me about Donald Trump? "You have a duty to vote for him because he's the only choice that might help us."

The "obligation" you note changes based on location, background, socioeconomic status, etc. It's relative, based on a laddering of priorities that changes as one moves around the country.

An "obligation" so relative (unless you believe a buffoon like Trump an existential threat to democracy, which is a hysterical view) isn't really an obligation. It's a person with one set of priorities telling someone else who might have a different set what to do.

Trump hasn't changed my life much, and nor would've Hillary. I didn't owe the Rust Belt Forgotten a duty to vote for Trump, and I didn't owe any of my neighbors a duty to vote for Hillary.
What a crock of shit. What is Trump going to do for WVa?
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