We are all Slave now.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

People ain’t packing the car and driving to St Louis to see the arch, might go to see the city including the Arch but the arch was there year ago. What did it being a Bational whatever add?

My guess is funding for maintenance.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Honest question to all, do any of us actually know poor people to the extent of knowing their spending habits? Any middle class? Not talking about the secretary you talk to 15 minutes, actual familiarity with their lives. Curious not being argumentative.

When my MIL went to "kidnap" her brother, suffering from brain cancer and in a nursing home she found unacceptable in Illinois, to take him on a "road trip" to the VA in Omaha, she and my wife stayed with a cousin who had been caring for the brother/uncle. The cousin offered dinner of sliced ham on white bread. This what the cousin and his wife brought with them for the "road trip." Once in Omaha, the cousin was planning to sleep in their minivan. I put them up in the Hampton Inn, telling them it was with points because they would not have accepted the money for it, and they were awfully impressed.

After dropping the brother off in at the VA, the cousin and his wife went on a vacation road trip to South Dakota, sleeping in the van and still eating that ham and white bread. I'm pretty sure they went to the Badlands National Park.

Anyway, yeah, lots of people of limited means take road trips to parks.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

People ain’t packing the car and driving to St Louis to see the arch, might go to see the city including the Arch but the arch was there year ago. What did it being a Bational whatever add?

You are not American if you have never dreamed of getting an RV and driving around to see Niagra Falls, the Arch, the Grand Canyon....

Do you think all those campers in 20 year old RVs cooking weenies over the fire are rolling it? I mean, you and I may get that chic nouveau camper for our trip, but the folks who have the old crank-up trailer?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

When my MIL went to "kidnap" her brother, suffering from brain cancer and in a nursing home she found unacceptable in Illinois, to take him on a "road trip" to the VA in Omaha, she and my wife stayed with a cousin who had been caring for the brother/uncle. The cousin offered dinner of sliced ham on white bread. This what the cousin and his wife brought with them for the "road trip." Once in Omaha, the cousin was planning to sleep in their minivan. I put them up in the Hampton Inn, telling them it was with points because they would not have accepted the money for it, and they were awfully impressed.

After dropping the brother off in at the VA, the cousin and his wife went on a vacation road trip to South Dakota, sleeping in the van and still eating that ham and white bread. I'm pretty sure they went to the Badlands National Park.

Anyway, yeah, lots of people of limited means take road trips to parks.

I’m not sure even Sebby would claim that means “lots?”

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Lots of data here about Trump voters that I haven't been able to absorb yet.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I’m not sure even Sebby would claim that means “lots?”

Of course Sebby would.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Xenophobia, to use your example, is not rational.

This is a purely academic point, but I think xenophobia can be rational. If you're deluded enough to think an "other" is the cause of your woes, removing that other is rational. But I do not think Trump voters are behaving in this manner. I agree with you that they are being intentionally irrational because scapegoating allows one to feel like he's doing something about his problem.

I think we are now agreeing that it is something psychological induces people to support for Trump, in most cases, rather than just their economic conditions. Even people who initially supported Trump for solely economic reasons have continued to support him, even as he has done fuck all besides cut taxes for rich people and start a trade war.

Again, I can't list all the forms of delusion at work there. And in some instances, where Trump has actually helped someone economically, that person's continued support makes sense. (Assuming this person does not care about all the damage Trump is doing elsewhere.)

Yes. That is literally unequal. But every human society everywhere since the dawn of recorded history has had that kind of inequality, and what we know about prehistorical burial sites suggests that the same was true in prehistory as well. So that flavor of inequality is a background fact for the human condition, not a factor that can explain anything.

I think people are bombarded with inequality now. It's only a century since Edward Bernays started manipulating the public to keep up with the Joneses. And only 20 years or so since the Internet brought all the people with better lives than yours to your computer screen, and now your phone.

Alexis de Tocqueville argued that the French Revolution came when it did not because things in France got too miserable, but because they had started to improve, raising expectations, and then those expectations were not met. You are saying something like that, I think, except that you haven't figure out why expectations would be higher in 2016 than, say, in 2008.

I think 2008 was a change election. People were sick of Bush and Cheney and war and housing meltdown which had just been starting. Obama seemed like the hand grenade that would obliterate a very ominous 8 years from 2001 through 2008. And the Trump people never got behind McCain, whom I think they saw as a bipartisan sellout. I think the Trumpsters stayed home in 2008, and again in 2012, when Romney, the ultimate stuffed suit, ran for office.

They've been waiting for a "movement" person like Trump for a long time. I don't think Trump largely was a reaction to Obama, as many do. I think he tapped into a long simmering rage at dashed expectations that became extreme after 2008 and hadn't yet found its champion.

I think it's a serious mistake to believe that Trump voters are any dumber than the rest of us. Better to assume they are getting what they paid for, especially since so many of them seem to stick by him.

As I said elsewhere, you can be dumb and get exactly what you want.

The mistake was not that he saved the banks. And thank God he did, because the history I just read of the Great Depression shows how poorly that could have gone. The mistake was that he wasn't willing to go farther, to bail out homeowners as well as the banks that loaned them money, to err on the side of caution and doing less, and then to pivot to a self-defeating austerity. These were policy errors and also political errors.

Agreed. But I think his hands were tied. Bush had already dragged into moral hazard. I think Obama looked around and thought, "How the hell do I decide who deserves a bailout and who doesn't? And once I open that box, how do I close it?"

Well, I will take a stab at an explanation. I think Trump voters are more comfortable with traditional hierarchies, and believe that people who have less status than them should be put in their place. They like Trump partly because he is a fat, rich, white guy with a sense of entitlement who picks fights with people who aren't like them.

I agree this describes an lot of them.

I hope the Left realizes that the problem is not Trump. It's Trump voters. He only has political power because they support him. We all have to live with them after he's gone.

He has made a real mess of things in that regard. But they were bound to appear as a force in some form. They had the Tea Party before Trump, and they'd find some other movement within which to bond.

If you only have two settings, BLAME EVERYONE EQUALLY and PICK ONE PERSON TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING, I can understand why this is hard for you.

Right. Except I don't. Like you, I wish to have liability apportioned to all in the exact proper amounts.

I still haven't read that. I also need to read the Carreyou book about Theranos.

I heard the Theranos book is awesome.

I have tried to read Heart of Darkness twice, and each time I have come down with the flu and haven't finished. Yes, I know it's a short book.

I've run into this same issue with Melville's Confidence Man. Philip Roth loved it, so I try, but it's been slow going with each attempt.

I think the line was about Kurtz's methods. I love that.

"I see... no method at all."

My other favorite exchange:

"Hey, soldier, do you know who's in charge here?"

(Long Pause)

"Yeah..."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

"i see... No method at all."

sell the house
sell the car
sell the kids
find someone else
forget it
i'm never coming back
forget it

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You are not American if you have never dreamed of getting an RV and driving around to see Niagra Falls, the Arch, the Grand Canyon....

Do you think all those campers in 20 year old RVs cooking weenies over the fire are rolling it? I mean, you and I may get that chic nouveau camper for our trip, but the folks who have the old crank-up trailer?

Or a Soviet Defector.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You are not American if you have never dreamed of getting an RV and driving around to see Niagra Falls, the Arch, the Grand Canyon....

Do you think all those campers in 20 year old RVs cooking weenies over the fire are rolling it? I mean, you and I may get that chic nouveau camper for our trip, but the folks who have the old crank-up trailer?

I hate driving, but not going to the Nat Parks with the kids is a big regret. As Thurgreed was quick to point out I did fly the fam* to Beijing for the Olympics.

*he was polite enough not to mention it was Business Class.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is a purely academic point, but I think xenophobia can be rational. If you're deluded enough to think an "other" is the cause of your woes, removing that other is rational.

If you use "rational" this way, it becomes tautological. Shooting yourself in the foot is rational if you think it will cure your fungus.

Again, I can't list all the forms of delusion at work there. And in some instances, where Trump has actually helped someone economically, that person's continued support makes sense. (Assuming this person does not care about all the damage Trump is doing elsewhere.)

You can always find edge cases, but since we are two+ years in and he really hasn't helped many people who aren't rich, we can pretty much dispense with the idea that they support him because he's helping them. They may say that, but if they do we can be sure that's mood affiliation.

I think people are bombarded with inequality now. It's only a century since Edward Bernays started manipulating the public to keep up with the Joneses. And only 20 years or so since the Internet brought all the people with better lives than yours to your computer screen, and now your phone.

Not that long ago, more than half of the population couldn't vote, and many of those who could in theory couldn't in practice. Honestly, you are looking at landscape that has been with us for a long time as if it is brand new. Geology didn't create those mountains overnight.

I think 2008 was a change election. People were sick of Bush and Cheney and war and housing meltdown which had just been starting. Obama seemed like the hand grenade that would obliterate a very ominous 8 years from 2001 through 2008. And the Trump people never got behind McCain, whom I think they saw as a bipartisan sellout. I think the Trumpsters stayed home in 2008, and again in 2012, when Romney, the ultimate stuffed suit, ran for office.

Most Trump supporters did not support Obama. That is key, and you seem to be assuming otherwise.

They've been waiting for a "movement" person like Trump for a long time. I don't think Trump largely was a reaction to Obama, as many do. I think he tapped into a long simmering rage at dashed expectations that became extreme after 2008 and hadn't yet found its champion.

They have been moving farther and farther to the right for decades.

Agreed. But I think his hands were tied. Bush had already dragged into moral hazard. I think Obama looked around and thought, "How the hell do I decide who deserves a bailout and who doesn't? And once I open that box, how do I close it?"

Quite the opposite. He had HAMP. He didn't use it.

Right. Except I don't. Like you, I wish to have liability apportioned to all in the exact proper amounts.

I'm glad to hear you say that, but more often you say things like, we all own this, or, we're all to blame, which is, you know, the opposite idea.

[Hank Chinaski]

So on FB, an Iraqui friend was talking about going to a new gym and being told there are 3 trainers, and that Mohammed is probably perfect. He had not mentioned a training goal.

I was reminded of something- This is one of those stories that sounds like I am asking for sympathy, but it is not. Just a weird place I was put in: so my BIL works at a car company, which means I get employee pricing. not free, but a fixed price so no need to haggle. For me buying a car is basically picking a model and color- I'm an easy sale- 10 years ago I went to a dealership and on the lot met a young black salesman (call him Joe) who was great- we basically finalized a deal- I came back two days later to finish it- and my salesman Joe called over the sales manager and another salesman (say Bob). I was informed that Bob was my actual salesman because the last car I got he helped me. I did not remember that and felt no loyalty to Bob. In fact I had a vague memory of having a problem the time before. Joe was great. I tried to catch Joe's eye because I was definitely up for saying he is my new guy, I didn't want Bob. But I had a real sense that would be Joe's last sale there- he seemed resigned to what they wanted to do. He walked away to greet a black couple on the lot. I was about to walk out, there are other dealerships, but would that end up screwing Joe too? What would you do?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You are not American if you have never dreamed of getting an RV and driving around to see Niagra Falls, the Arch, the Grand Canyon....

I am definitely not American, then.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

So on FB, an Iraqui friend was talking about going to a new gym and being told there are 3 trainers, and that Mohammed is probably perfect. He had not mentioned a training goal.

I was reminded of something- This is one of those stories that sounds like I am asking for sympathy, but it is not. Just a weird place I was put in: so my BIL works at a car company, which means I get employee pricing. not free, but a fixed price so no need to haggle. For me buying a car is basically picking a model and color- I'm an easy sale- 10 years ago I went to a dealership and on the lot met a young black salesman (call him Joe) who was great- we basically finalized a deal- I came back two days later to finish it- and my salesman Joe called over the sales manager and another salesman (say Bob). I was informed that Bob was my actual salesman because the last car I got he helped me. I did not remember that and felt no loyalty to Bob. In fact I had a vague memory of having a problem the time before. Joe was great. I tried to catch Joe's eye because I was definitely up for saying he is my new guy, I didn't want Bob. But I had a real sense that would be Joe's last sale there- he seemed resigned to what they wanted to do. He walked away to greet a black couple on the lot. I was about to walk out, there are other dealerships, but would that end up screwing Joe too? What would you do?

Ask why someone who helped you with your last car is your salesman for life. Let them know if that's their policy, it makes no sense and if there is credit to be given it should be given to the excellent salesman you had been working with. Not sure why he'd get fired for you saying that. At the very least, credit should be split. If you don't like the explanation tell them you'll just go to another dealer.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Lots of data here about Trump voters that I haven't been able to absorb yet.

Let me help just a touch. Uneducated and evangelical whites are this country's most immediate and lasting danger.

TM