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Old 09-08-2015, 04:20 PM   #976
ThurgreedMarshall
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Re: Ketchup

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
As I said, shitty example as Hank's hypothetical drinking is an issue of it's own.

But let's say Hank's got some sort of chronic medical condition that says he can only perform a few times a year. Whereas his wife feels unfulfilled if she's not getting some at least weekly. This wasn't an issue before Hank got ill, and Hank's done everything possible to try to treat it.

You think Hank's wife should just have to go on being unfulfilled? Or that her leaving him over the lack of sexual satisfaction is kinder/more appropriate/less hurtful than doing what she has to do to stay sane and stay married?

Assuming that she really wants to stay with Hank (ha!) and just wants some sexual fulfillment, I think she's perfectly justified with getting some on the side.
I completely disagree. If he is unable to perform sexually and does not want her to fuck other guys, given that they made vows to be faithful (presumably in sickness or in health), it is not okay to get some on the side. The fact that she doesn't get permission in advance and has to do it in secret is the exact issue. If she is not satisfied to the extent she has to get it elsewhere and lie and keep it a secret, she is in the wrong. She should get a divorce.

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In these scenarios, my embarrassment would be that she didn't think she could seek my permission, which she would have gotten. The deal changed in a material way and she shouldn't have to bear the entire burden of that change.
Well, maybe you and I have different ideas of what marriage means. If your wife agrees to be faithful no matter what and you get sick such that you have problems performing, her sneaking around and getting it elsewhere without telling should be fatal. If she can't live with her promise, she should ask for a divorce (which are granted for loss of consortium).

You're right. It's a shitty example. But I don't think you can come up with one that doesn't involve consent from the other person, which destroys the example.

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Neither of those things matter to Hank when he's working our wives.
If Hank plows my wife, everybody dies.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:23 PM   #977
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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1. It has to have an impact. If you illegally figure out just one play before the snap, that has a direct impact on the game - NFL games are routinely decided by one or two plays. A successful completion on third down at the 50 turns into an incompletion resulting in a punt. That's one play that had a huge effect on the probability of the opponent scoring. We've all played Tecmo Bowl and know what happens when you call the other team's play.

2. Bill Simmons went on a twitter rant blaming Colts/Eagles/Steelers losses to the Cheatriots on actions or inactions of those teams, as if dumb decisions/plays made by those teams somehow negates the Patriots illegally knowing exactly what those teams were going to call. That's insane logic.

3. I was actually rooting for Brady to win the appeal because Gooddell is such a moron.
Agree on all points.

The annoying aspect of the whole thing is that moronic fans think that Brady has been vindicated on whether he deflated footballs.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:24 PM   #978
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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It sure is.

What I find the most shocking about Spygate and Deflategate is the constant refrain that none of the dirty shit they were clearly doing had much of an impact on any game. How the fuck is this a defense to anything? How does anyone know how much of an impact it had. Given how intricate Spygate seems to have been and the level of risk allegedly taken in Deflategate, why the fuck would they do it if there is no value?

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What I find the most shocking is that after all of the criticism of the Spygate investigation, and the questions left open by the apparent lack of completeness, how the NFL managed to bungle the deflategate investigation even more (not to mention the Ray Rice investigation - apparently the NFL has an aversion to looking for more videotape).
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:25 PM   #979
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I'm sure it helped, or they wouldn't have done it. But it doesn't sound like it helped much.
You sound like Bonds defenders who said steroids can't help him make contact with the ball.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:25 PM   #980
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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That said, I find his entire line of reasoning that Brady had no notice that he may be punished for engaging in a cheating scheme (or, to be specific, this particular cheating scheme) to be absofuckinglutely ridiculous.
Blame the labor laws for that one. And the New Orleans Saints players, for winning on much the same point in the bounty investigation.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:26 PM   #981
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Any team could have someone watching the other team's signals and telling the sideline what they were going to do. What the Patriots allegedly did was videotape the signals to try to learn them better. I don't have the link open so you'll have to find it yourself, but Deadspin tries to figure out whether the guy who was doing this was getting the calls right and making a difference. I'm sure it helped, or they wouldn't have done it. But it doesn't sound like it helped much. They certainly did not know exactly what those teams were going to call.

eta: from my browser history, Deadspin link
They videotaped plays in a manner that was against the rules.

"Which is all to say, it’s probably safe to shunt most of the But the cheating didn’t even help that muchhhhh defense off to the side, unless you are very sure that Bill Belichick and his clandestine cronies are the dumbest men working in football."

And I'm not sure what is meant by the predictions being 50% accurate. If a team has 10 run plays and 10 pass plays, and the other side predicts which play is going to be called 50% of the time, that would seem to be a huge advantage.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:29 PM   #982
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Re: Ketchup

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
If your wife agrees to be faithful no matter what and you get sick such that you have problems performing, her sneaking around and getting it elsewhere without telling should be fatal. If she can't live with her promise, she should ask for a divorce (which are granted for loss of consortium).
I'd rather stay married.

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You're right. It's a shitty example.
Drunken Hank who can't get it up is a shitty example, because Hank being drunk all the time is a relationship issue that he can fix. I just wanted to run with the "Hank's a drunk" thing.

Chronically unable to perform despite all efforts to fix it Hank is not a shitty example.

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But I don't think you can come up with one that doesn't involve consent from the other person, which destroys the example.
In all instances consent is better. But there may be reasons why she feels she can't get his consent or that trying to get consent will end the marriage anyway.

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If Hank plows my wife, everybody dies.

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You mean if Hank plows your wife and you find out about it.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:34 PM   #983
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) View Post
What I find the most shocking is that after all of the criticism of the Spygate investigation, and the questions left open by the apparent lack of completeness, how the NFL managed to bungle the deflategate investigation even more (not to mention the Ray Rice investigation - apparently the NFL has an aversion to looking for more videotape).
Agreed.

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:35 PM   #984
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Re: Brady/Bucky didn't know about it, right?

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At least this is an honest response.

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And ever since Bucky Fucking Dent, it has been Boston's goal to cheat better than New York.

Victory!
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:37 PM   #985
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Re: Ketchup

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
In all instance consent is better. But there may be reasons why she feels she can't get his consent or that trying to get consent will end the marriage anyway.
But that's the entire, unavoidable point!

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Old 09-08-2015, 04:37 PM   #986
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Re: Ketchup

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what does this mean?
Adder has what's known as a "Brady marriage".
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:50 PM   #987
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Re: Ketchup

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Adder has what's known as a "Brady marriage".
I'm pretty confident my wife is unlikely to step out on me, but if she does and it's a one (or minimal) time thing akin to giving in to temptation, I do not want to know about it, which I've told her. While I'd would try to forgive her, confessions in these circumstance seem to do nothing but shift the emotional burden from the "wrongdoer" to the "victim" and make the forgiving more difficult.

If it's more than a one time thing and is indicative of something missing in our relationship, I want to know what we need to work on, not be the confessor to hear her sins. I've told her that too.

Infidelity is far too common to be always and in all contexts be a relationship extinction level event.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:58 PM   #988
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Fuck off. I read most of Berman's decision. Your biggest complaint with what I wrote has to do with a technical point of his decision. Maybe you're right that I should have distinguished whether or not Goodell's power to appoint himself hearing officer in 'any appeal' was not itself found to be in violation of due process, but his application of such power in this case was (although, practically speaking, I don't see a difference--the judge is basically saying that the word "any" does not apply).
As someone who now occasionally practices employment law, I didn't think the distinction I was making was technical. I read Berman to be saying that while the arbitration could have been fair, it wasn't, for specific reasons relating to the way the NFL handled things.

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But the fact that you continue to assert that the judge has vindicated Brady (indirectly or not) of the underlying cheating accusation is just bullshit.
I did not say that, and if you think I did perhaps that explains why you responded the way you did. The decision expressly says: "In view of the Court's determinations regarding the inadequacy of notice and discovery afforded to Brady, the Court does not reach Brady's other claims, which include ... Brady argues that 'Goodell purports to sustain the suspension on factual conclusions that Brady participated in ball tampering -- but those factual conclusions ... appear nowhere in the Wells Report and were not the basis for the discipline imposed by Vincent." I'm sure that Brady's lawyers included this argument to shoot for vindication, since it gave Berman a chance to address the evidence about what Brady did, but Berman declined the invitation. So there was no vindication for him.

I do think that if you read the decision, it's hard to escape thinking that Berman did not buy any of what the NFL was selling, including the proposition that the league was addressing a real problem. For example, the putting of "independent" in scarequotes.

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That said, I find his entire line of reasoning that Brady had no notice that he may be punished for engaging in a cheating scheme (or, to be specific, this particular cheating scheme) to be absofuckinglutely ridiculous. The decision relating to Brady's inability to compel testimony from Pash or to review notes of the investigation seems pretty sound.
Relatively speaking, I agree, but with these arbitrations there should be some pretense that the employer and employee actually agreed to what is going on, and the lack of notice goes to the problem that Goodell was just making it up as he went.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:59 PM   #989
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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You sound like Bonds defenders who said steroids can't help him make contact with the ball.

TM
I just said it helped them or they wouldn't have done it, and you think I said it didn't help them. Why don't you find someone who is actually spouting the bullshit you hear and argue with him instead?
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:01 PM   #990
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? View Post
They videotaped plays in a manner that was against the rules.
Yes, that's what I said.

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"Which is all to say, it’s probably safe to shunt most of the But the cheating didn’t even help that muchhhhh defense off to the side, unless you are very sure that Bill Belichick and his clandestine cronies are the dumbest men working in football."
I read that too. And then suggested you read it.

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And I'm not sure what is meant by the predictions being 50% accurate. If a team has 10 run plays and 10 pass plays, and the other side predicts which play is going to be called 50% of the time, that would seem to be a huge advantage.
Well, the half the time you are predicting the wrong play, that is actually unhelpful.
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