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Old 08-08-2018, 05:30 PM   #2206
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
This is exactly wrong. We are saying they do not put enough weight on his racism. If they did, they wouldn't fucking vote for him. But racism is either not that important to them or they like it. We are slaying them because their calculation when it comes to raise is off such that they can see it with their own eyes and either cheer it, ignore it, or think it's not fatal to his candidacy.

Absolutely no one is discounting these people. These people are deluded about their own racism. If you don't can't see clear racism, then you are okay with racism.

TM
If the definition of racism includes not paying attention to it, I can’t argue with the first point. I’m not conceding that definition, but I’m not arguing the definition and I see the heft in that argument.

The second group? I disagree. These people really believe he’s not racist, and that the fake news is making it up. It’s seriously pathological, enough that you can’t really consider these people living in reality.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:31 PM   #2207
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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Jesus fucking Christ. At this point I think it's intentional. The are okay with it enough that they will still vote for the guy. The bold, italicized words in that sentence are the key to the concept. Stop deleting them in your analysis. It is not a deal-breaker for them. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

TM
This reminds me of an assignment my son had in school. He had to argue that the Cultural Revolution in China was a good thing. So his paper had to begin, "Notwithstanding the deaths of millions of people...."
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:32 PM   #2208
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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Jesus fucking Christ. At this point I think it's intentional. The are okay with it enough that they will still vote for the guy. The bold, italicized words in that sentence are the key to the concept. Stop deleting them in your analysis. It is not a deal-breaker for them. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

TM
I’m stuck on “okay.” Remove that and I can accept the analysis. Okay implies they’re accepting of it.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:34 PM   #2209
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From the No Shit Desk

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It's not in the past.
How trenchant of you

ETA: Insert “and current.” I guess I deserve this... Literalism is a two edged sword.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:34 PM   #2210
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Second issue first. That’s not how this will be analyzed.
No shit. This is because we live in a racist country and the people who analyze these issues in this manner don't want to face the actual problem.

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The analysis will necessarily have to involve an examination of how behaviors and customs of the group have contributed to unique disadvantages or perpetuation if disadvantages when controlled for impact of past institutional predations.
Look, if you could wield the Infinity Gauntlet, snap your fingers and completely erase racism tomorrow, people of color would be in a hole economically (compared to white people). Eventually things would even out (to the extent it could given how our society is structured to make sure families with money keep it). It wouldn't be right away, of course.

Sure, we might debate why it's taking so long. But no one would say, "let's examine the behaviors and customs of black people and why it's taking so long for them to catch up" because racism wouldn't exist. The conversation would revolve entirely on geo-economic factors. Any study would necessarily be on an individual basis and would be relative to every other person in that person's caste because race is a social construct.

People who want to talk about "a race's responsibility for their circumstances" don't want to have a real conversation. They want to act like things are all even now and black people need to start acting like the few black people they know who have succeeded. It's a sucker's game. Stop playing it.

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As to white people and effect approach, agreed. That is a better approach.
Definitely more effective.

TM

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Old 08-08-2018, 05:37 PM   #2211
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
If the definition of racism includes not paying attention to it, I can’t argue with the first point. I’m not conceding that definition, but I’m not arguing the definition and I see the heft in that argument.

The second group? I disagree. These people really believe he’s not racist, and that the fake news is making it up. It’s seriously pathological, enough that you can’t really consider these people living in reality.
You are as delusional as you think they are.

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Old 08-08-2018, 05:42 PM   #2212
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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I’m stuck on “okay.” Remove that and I can accept the analysis. Okay implies they’re accepting of it.
Yes. I see that that is the problem. But that is a logical fallacy. You can use whatever word you like.

They accept his racism because they like everything else.
They ignore his racism in favor of other stuff.
They are alright with the level of racism he exhibits because...jobs.
They support him despite his racism because he like miners.
They tolerate his racism because he's a businessman.

Of course "okay" implies they are accepting of it. They are accepting of it. That is the entire point I am making. But this does not mean they don't disagree with it. It's just not a big enough problem in their minds that they won't vote for him. Contrast that concept with the people who vote for him because he's racist. If you can make that distinction, we can all move on.

TM

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Old 08-08-2018, 05:45 PM   #2213
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
No shit. This is because we live in a racist country and the people who analyze these issues don't want to face the actual problem.

Look, if you could wield the Infinity Gauntlet, snap your fingers and completely erase racism tomorrow, people of color would be in a hole economically (compared to white people). Eventually things would even out (to the extent it could given how our society is structured to make sure families with money keep it). It wouldn't be right away, of course.

Sure, we might debate why it's taking so long. But no one would say, "let's examine the behaviors and customs of black people and why it's taking so long for them to catch up" because racism wouldn't exist. The conversation would revolve entirely on geo-economic factors. Any study would necessarily be on an individual basis and would be relative to every other person in that person's caste because racism is a social construct.

People who want to talk about "a race's responsibility for their circumstances" don't want to have a real conversation. They want to act like things are all even now and black people need to start acting like the few black people they know who have succeeded. It's a sucker's game. Stop playing it.

Definitely more effective.

TM
I don’t have an interest in playing the game at all. I dislike thinking about people beyond individually for reasons I’ve noted. But the scientific analysis will include what you’ve cited above. To be honest and rigorous it must.

I never suggested and never would that we could analyze racism with a measure that pretends it no longer exists. That’s retarded. That would violate every tenet of responsible science. I’m saying there’d be clinically rigorous apportionment of responsibility for disadvantages.

That’s a fucking dicey conversation. It’s worth having because we could finally put to rest the stupid argument that we’re in a post-racism society, and the stupid argument that groups are genetically inferior or superior.

But if people like GGG and Adder are going to throw “racist!” around recklessly, it’s going to be an incoherent discussion that goes nowhere.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:48 PM   #2214
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Re: And so on and so on, and scooby doobie do

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I’m stuck on “okay.” Remove that and I can accept the analysis. Okay implies they’re accepting of it.
It implies that they’re accepting of his racism because they are accepting of it enough to vote for him. They’re not saying that they would let him into their clubs, let him marry their daughters or sons, buy a used car from him, have a beer with him, etc etc ad infinitum.

But his racism doesn’t prevent them from voting for him. How is this not being okay with it? Shit, GHWB voted for HRC. Do you think he enjoyed that?

ETA: What Thurgreed said. And to note that I was ok enough with Bill Clinton’s misogyny to vote for him in 1996. (I don’t think it was as clear in 1992.) Doesn’t make me happy, and if I didn’t agree with him on enough issues, I might have stayed home (though Bob Dole would say “Bob Dole thinks that Bob Dole would have been sorta tolerable”). (Sorry - that tic is one of my favorite things about Bob Dole.)

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Old 08-08-2018, 06:09 PM   #2215
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
But if people like GGG and Adder are going to throw “racist!” around recklessly, it’s going to be an incoherent discussion that goes nowhere.
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:09 PM   #2216
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Re: Sebby keeps seeing 2 of everything

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Originally Posted by not bob View Post
it implies that they’re accepting of his racism because they are accepting of it enough to vote for him. They’re not saying that they would let him into their clubs, let him marry their daughters or sons, buy a used car from him, have a beer with him, etc etc ad infinitum.

But his racism doesn’t prevent them from voting for him. How is this not being okay with it? Shit, ghwb voted for hrc. Do you think he enjoyed that?

Eta: What thurgreed said. And to note that i was ok enough with bill clinton’s misogyny to vote for him in 1996. (i don’t think it was as clear in 1992.) doesn’t make me happy, and if i didn’t agree with him on enough issues, i might have stayed home (though bob dole would say “bob dole thinks that bob dole would have been sorta tolerable”). (sorry - that tic is one of my favorite things about bob dole.)
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:19 PM   #2217
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Fragility^nth
Dipshit, if the debate becomes whether Harris is a racist, nobody gets to the meat of the conversation.

It’s been 100 posts on this and the criticism your peanut gallery shit stifles conversation hasn’t stuck yet?

You’re the kinda-drunk personal trainer at the bar overhearing the conversation and interjecting between skinny mojitos. I should be a better person and just ignore you, but I’ve a failing there.
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:36 PM   #2218
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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I’m saying there’d be clinically rigorous apportionment of responsibility for disadvantages.
This is the problem with your post.

There is no such thing as a "clinically rigorous apportionment of responsibility for disadvantages." Every single factor that leads one to be disadvantaged and to remain disadvantaged created and continues to create the conditions that make the people of that disadvantaged group act the way they act.

There is nothing about black people that makes them more prone to give up on a job search. If they do, it's because there have been generations of negative experiences with job searches as well as the current conditions, in relation to white people (for example) when it comes to a job search, that results in that behavior.

There is nothing innate about black people that makes them tend to be less educated. The conditions in this country in which slaves and blacks generally spent generations being flogged and killed for attempting to educate themselves results in generations of uneducated people who do not have the same tools to use and give their offspring to succeed on the same levels as white people. And they don't have the same expectation or experience that leads them to conclude that education leads to success.

We can do this all day with whatever example you can think of. If you accept the fact that race is a social construct, then the only explanation for how races act differently in comparison to each other is based on the racial disadvantages or advantages thrust on them.

What people who want to have this blame apportionment discussion really want to talk about is why black people don't try harder, or do more, or why they stay stuck. The shift in the conversation away from what I outlined above is intentional and the conversation always leads to personal responsibility and anecdotal evidence. That's when we get:

"Thurgreed made it, why can't everyone?"
"I had it tough too. Look at how well I've done."
"But what about affirmative action?"
"My ancestors came from Ireland and were treated poorly, but Irish don't have the same problems as blacks today."
"What about black-on-black crime?"

In order to have a conversation on this front where you are "clinically and rigorously apportioning responsibility for disadvantages," you have to completely abandon the notion that race is a social construct.

TM
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:56 PM   #2219
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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dipshit, if the debate becomes whether harris is a racist, nobody gets to the meat of the conversation.

It’s been 100 posts on this and the criticism your peanut gallery shit stifles conversation hasn’t stuck yet?

You’re the kinda-drunk personal trainer at the bar overhearing the conversation and interjecting between skinny mojitos. I should be a better person and just ignore you, but i’ve a failing there.
nvm
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:02 PM   #2220
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Well, looks like a few dinosaurs are stuck in a swamp.

It's going to be interesting to see how far this one goes, especially since Wilbur Ross has some similar issues.
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