Form 180?
 

yes, although most were inadvertantly destroyed in 96.

There is no way you would accept this in discovery and you know it and so does everyone else. Credibility Bob! you and Larry are the only libs with it here- please don't squander it....

Form 180?
 

He did. Recall all the "lost file" hoopla. And the need for CBS to make stuff up

"What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm," Letson recorded in a written account detailing his encounter with Kerry. "The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter."

Letson said he used forceps to remove the piece of metal,
which had penetrated no more than 3 or 4 mm into the skin. "It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound," Letson wrote. "The wound was covered with a bandaid."

...

When Letson first went public with his account, the Kerry campaign suggested that he had not been present at Cam Ranh Bay and was not even a medical doctor. In a letter threatening television-station managers who ran the first Swift boat
ad, Kerry's lawyers wrote, "The 'doctor' who appears in the ad, Louis Letson, was not a crewmate of Senator Kerry's and was not the doctor who actually signed Senator Kerry's sick-call sheet. In fact, another physician actually signed Senator Kerry's sick-call sheet."

But it turned out Kerry's lawyers were wrong. The sheet was
signed not by another doctor but by Letson's assistant, J. C. Carreon, who is no longer alive. And the sick-call sheet's description of Kerry's wound, while very brief, is entirely consistent with Letson's recollections. It reads, in full: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and appli
bacitracin dressing. Ret to Duty."

....

a Purple Heart can be received only for an injury severe enough to require treatment "by a medical officer", i.e., by a doctor. If the assistant, Carreon, was the only person to treat the injury, it doesn't count for a Purple Heart. If the doctor, Letson, treated it, then it doesn't count either, because Dr. Letson says he really didn't have to see it. Kerry's medal is bogus either way.

Form 180?
 

You left out Giuliani and Pataki. And what makes you think Jeb is not going to run? Of course he is going to run. His denials right now are just to make him look as though he is not totally obsessed with the job. Ashcroft is running for sure.

Form 180?
 

Read the article, Bilmore. If you do, you would see that it said:

re: the firefight or lack of a firefight:

• In his affidavit, Letson says Kerry's wound was self-inflicted and does not merit a purple heart. But that's based on hearsay, and disputed hearsay at that. Letson says “the crewman with Kerry told me there was no hostile fire, and that Kerry had inadvertently wounded himself with an M-79 grenade.” But the Kerry campaign says the two crewmen with Kerry that day deny ever talking to Letson.
  
  On Aug. 17 the Los Angeles Times quoted Letson as giving a slightly different account than the one in his affidavit. The Times quotes him as saying he heard only third-hand that there had been no enemy fire. According to the Times, Letson said that what he heard about Kerry's wounding came not from other crewmen directly, but through some of his own subordinates. Letson was quoted as saying the information came from crewmen who were "just talking to my guys … There was not a firefight -- that's what the guys related. They didn't remember any firing from shore."

You're right -- it's undisputed. Kerry says there was one, and the doctor says that he heard that his staff heard that there wasn't a fight. Direct testimony versus third-hand hearsay. And I'll have to check, but I think that Kerry's direct testimony was supported by Sandusky.

Re his disobeying his commanding officer to put in for the Purple Heart:

• Also appearing in the ad is Grant Hibbard, Kerry’s commanding officer at the time. Hibbard’s affidavit says that he “turned down the Purple Heart request,” and recalled Kerry's injury as a "tiny scratch less than from a rose thorn."
  
  That doesn't quite square with Letson's affidavit, which describes shrapnel "lodged in Kerry's arm" (though "barely.")
  
  Hibbard also told the Boston Globe in an interview in April 2004 that he eventually acquiesced about granting Kerry the purple heart.
  
  Hibbard: I do remember some questions on it. . .I finally said, OK if that's what happened. . . do whatever you want.

Mutiny! Why didn't the Navy shoot that Kerry bastard when he put in for that!

Hillary v. ?
 

Hillary already has the nomination locked up.

Form 180?
 

Okay, I see our difference here.

To you, Kerry's testimony on this matter is dispositive.

Sometimes I guess you just write your motions and let the judge decide.

You're correct here. I was confusing his multiple trivial injuries. No commander saw this one.

(ETA - I do need to add - look at the picture you're painting here of your hero. Impressive.)

Form 180?
 

I recall the inadvertant destruction, but honestly wasn't sure that he had signed the release.

Hey, this ain't a lawsuit, and Kerry ain't my client. That being said, the fact that he only releases the records that help him doesn't mean that those records are false. I'm sure that if there was anything really juicy in the unreleased ones, the GOP would have leaked it. (See e.g. James Baker ordered-State Department review of Bill Clinton's passport file in 1992.) (To be fair, see also all the stuff that LBJ did to Goldwater in 1964. Or the FBI files in the Clinton era, although there was no election that year.)

Form 180?
 

Look Bennie, you know I have no beef with you, but I sure hope that sometime in the near future you can find something a little less acidic to worship. Maybe if you were able to back away from the day to day to and fro here and take a good hard look at yourself (and this goes for the rest of all y’all Hillaryophiles) with a logical mind and a heart open to the love of the lord and his son Jesus (and the ghost too) you would easily see how sick you really are to be so in love with this person of less than zero morals. At the first opportunity she would gut you all like a floppy fish and toss you overboard.

There is one person in this world important to this scrotum-wearing-female and that person is the same person who is of paramount importance to the communist puppet masters in Beijing, and that my friend is her royal highnAss herself, Queen cHillary

As an aside, let me tell y’all a story, that is set on a bright sunny afternoon and there is a man who is obviously very much in love by the aura he cast upon his surroundings. He is sitting in the park in his car listening to his favorite radio personality thinking of the love he was about to meet on this beautiful day. The man had been directed to wait as she might be running a little late, so the fact that she was not there yet did not bother him at all. He sat there half way smiling, thinking of the long wet tongue kiss he had received earlier that same day as they parted in her office.

With the suddenness of a bat out of a belfry he is swooped down upon and completely subdued by two large goonish men in dark suits and ray ban wayfarers. He is pulled out of the car and behind it, out of sight of anyone that might be able to see from afar, like perhaps a guard at the nearby Saudi embassy. Then with a quick little silencer enhanced "pop" he was no more.

After cautiously glancing around the two goons carried his limp lifeless body, not unlike two well dressed frat boys helping a drunken pledge. The lifeless body is set down out of immediate sight of casual passerbys and the two thugs saunter off to a waiting dark sedan with government plates and are gone.

That whole sad scenario played out in less than 120 seconds and was perfectly timed so that its history bore no witness. Shortly thereafter the poor slob’s dead body was discovered, but only after Mr. Vince Foster’s office had already been thoroughly ransacked and with all traces of deadly liaison with Madame Hillary having been removed, burned and the ashes cast to sea.

This was not a perfect crime in and of its self, but what made it perfect was that the people, including the chief executive officer of this little world, that should have protected Vince’s life conspired to hide and destroy the facts for fear of their own lives and well being.

Sad.

http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDat...ryPureEvil.jpg

Arnold Quiz
 

After the way Davis was demonized (and, in part, recalled) for pay-to-play, despite his repeated assertions that his fundraising and policy shops were totally separate, this is pretty funny.
So special interests are just those people who disagree with AS. Thanks, but I've heard that one already.

Form 180?
 

I thought this too.

Form 180?
 

I think RayBan is one word.

Form 180?
 

Giuliani can't win the nomination. Pataki is a bore. He lost the nomination during his key note speech at the convention.

Form 180?
 

Jesus, Bilmore. You are impossible. The doctor you rely upon acknowledges that he has no first-hand knowledge.

You are right. I view the Swifties as a bunch of liars, founded by a liar who was hired as a hatchet man by Chuck Colson thirty years ago. I view all of their assertions through a prism -- a prism mainly related to their despicable assertion that Jim Rassmussen was in no danger when Kerry saved him. They were there, they say, and the saw what happened. Yet they did nothing to pluck this guy (who is now a Republican) out of the water. Why not? They say that no one was shooting at them. So why, bilmore, why?

It is political retribution from a bunch of guys who hate that Kerry went back to the US and helped the anti-war movement. Fair enough. I am certain that many Vietnam vets feel that way -- in fact, I have a family member who served there and was still so upset about it last fall that I couldn't even bring the subject of the election up.

Did Kerry game the system to get out of Vietnam? Maybe. Maybe even probably. Heck, one could even say yes. That doesn't change the facts -- he was wounded three times in accordance with the regs in force. He did save Rassmussen's life. He did serve honorably.

Attack him for what he said when he came back. Attack him for his 20 year record. But don't lie about him, and don't pretend that the Swifties were anything but a (successful) political hit job

Arnold Quiz
 

Show me where the money affected performance, and I'll worry. What's ANY political contribution in your world? There seems to be more than enough evidence that, for Davis, money was the convincing factor. He was for sale. Arnold is just taking contributions from people who want him to continue with his exhibitied philosophy. Big Difference.

Form 180?
 

How fortuitous.

I will say that the one thing that the Rather debacle did do was draw attention away from the fact that GWB did skip a flight physical when he was in the NG and because of that was removed from flight status for a year. I know you don't really support the idea of people being held to account for drug use in their younger days, but to me that still seems like an interesting blank for someone to fill in someday.

But I'm repeating myself, you guys won, Rather has been put out in Shame Pasture, etc.

Form 180?
 

Lie? You've gone from "he only heard it third-hand" to "lie"? That word has been tossed around awfully easily in the last year or two, and has done more than most other factors to make the rift permanent, I think. I'm just about to the "f you" point, just over the ease with which that word is used.

Especially considering the news about the organized bugout of Saddam's nuclear weapons facilities.

An honest, though partisan, question
 

Now that it looks like Social Security is to GWB as Health Care Reform is to Hillary, is Hillary somewhat innoculated from memories of that disaster?

During the next election, assuming Hillary is part of it, I would assume approximately an equal number of mentions of the failure to reform Social Security and the failure to reform Health Care, but the social security debate will be fresher in people's minds. Or is there a candidate (Other than Collin Powell, who was pushed overboard before the ship crashed) on the Rs side who will be able to distance himself from George's Folly?

An honest, though partisan, question
 

Is Bush running again? What likely candidate can legitimately have SS reform attached to him/her? Frist is probably the closest.

An honest, though partisan, question
 

Hmmm.

"George's Folly"?

1. Won second term.
2. Won in Afghanistan.
3. Won in Iraq.
4. Making good headway transforming Iraq into a democracy.
5. Scaring Syria shirtless.
6. Expanding economy.
7. Coattails like all get-out.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Arnold Quiz
 

In my world, we're thinking that you're thinking I am accusing AS of being bought. I am not. I am saying he's hypocritical for taking a ton of money from like minded in- and out-of-state business groups who favor his policies and ballot initiatives, while decrying groups like the nurse's unions as "special interests" for giving money to his foes in the legislature and to the efforts opposing his ballot measures.

(News Flash: Politician's Sound Bite is Hypocritical. Film at 11.)

Form 180?
 

And those Chemical RVs.


Bush lied!

An honest, though partisan, question
 

So the answer when someone brings up what was initially the top domestic priority of his second term is to change the subject?

He decided to spend political capital. But he made a very poor investment. Hmmmm. Sounds like an analogy is in there somewhere.

I expect all Rs to be painted with Social Security reform failure by whatever D gets the nomination - talking about social security is something that always gets Rs in trouble. The only R who wins on the issue is someone who can distance themselves from
Bush (which most will not want to do for other reasons) and then talk like a Democrat on the subject.

An honest, though partisan, question
 

Sure, except that you have to make the additional step of attributing the individual's decisions to any member of the party.

Are you saying that Hillary is going to have a problem with her military record too?

An honest, though partisan, question
 

No one is going to question Hillary's on her machismo.

An honest, though partisan, question
 

This sort of thing doesn't hurt:

• Alan Greenspan and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton clashed briefly Tuesday over rosy surplus forecasts the Federal Reserve chairman relied on to support President Bush's 2001 tax cuts, estimates that turned out to be considerably off the mark.
  
  "It turns out that we were all wrong," Greenspan conceded at a Senate hearing.
  
  "Just for the record, we were not all wrong, but many people were wrong," Clinton, D-N.Y., quickly shot back.

AP

An honest, though partisan, question
 

Well, they thought no one would get dinged until 2009/10 when the financial shit hit the fan. Greenspan will have retired, and Bush will be out of office. With any luck, a D will be in office.

Form 180?
 

Three years is a long time, but as of now, no one has more than a prayer of beating her in a Democratic primary.

I also think you misunderestimate her as a politician. 18 years in in the national spotlight is a long time to learn hard lessons. She has learned a lot -- and didn't just buy votes in NY in 2000, BTW. (her first elective office) Her time as first lady helped her build a national consituency and name recognition (for good or bad) that takes her well outside the realm of the average Senator running for President. Her husband is also a pretty skilled campaigner, fundraiser and campaign adviser. There are those who firmly believe that, if Gore had listened more to Clinton in 2000, he'd have won.

S_A_M

Also -- Dean taking on the party Chair takes him out of the fray while letting him build lots of chits for the future. if the 2006 election cycle goes quite well for the Dems, he _might_ step down and run in 2008. If the Dems get pounded in 2006, he might step down, but wouldn't likely be a successful candidate.

Form 180?
 

That's all true. But he's way behind Hillary -- and still in his late 40s (I think) -- so he can be around in the next decade.

He will be looking for a job in the next election cycle though (VA has only one term governors). Who knows, maybe he can pick off one of the GOP Senators. (Though I kinda like Warner.)

S_A_M

Form 180?
 

His wife told him she'd divorce him.

S_A_M

Form 180?
 

You hurt me. Hank. BTW -- casual Friday for the icon?

S_A_M

Arnold Quiz
 

You might be right. However, it is remarkable that you say things like this, and yet seem to believe that your positions/perceptions are somehow more rational and well-supported, and less motivated/colored by ideology, than Ty's.

S_A_M

Form 180?
 

What "news"? That isn't news -- unless it is because its finally published somewhere tht you choose to believe it.

We talked about shit like that in late 2003 and 2004 to criticize the chaos and mismanagement of the early occupation. I recall Slave, Hank and others swearing it could never have happened because those organized mass movements would have been seen and stopped. (Remember the whole controversy over the allegedly missing uranium under IAEA seals? You said it was an election year ploy.)

S_A_M

Form 180?
 

As far as the weapons of Mass Destruction. I think they were used as a justification to go to war and were not the main reason we went to war. But I am almost positive that everyone in the administration thought Saddam had WMDs. They were just as surprized as anyone else that they were not there. If you remember he had used them before, and he was completely not cooperating with the weaponse inspectors. Why else would he provent the weapon inspectors from inspecting certain places if he didn't have WMDs. Clearly everyone overestimated Saddan Husseins intelligence and level headedness. It is clear now that he messed with the weapon inspectors out of pure spite or insanity. But I just don't think the administration would have gone on and on about the WMDs unless they thought they were there. At the time they were hyping up the WMDs that it was clear that if none were found it would be big trouble for the administration. I remember Colmes, on Hannity and Colmes, saying to Hannity that if we go in and there are no WBDs George was in big trouble. Hannity agreed, but said that it was absurd to think that Hussein didn't have the WMD. Yes, it was a big intelligence screw, but it was not a conspiracy of lies like everyone likes to think it is. Every mistake by the administration is not some conspiracy.

Arnold Quiz
 

I think bilmore was just trying to say that Arnold can't be for sale, since he is his own man, while Davis had to have been for sale, because he certainly didn't seem to stand for much of anything.

Form 180?
 

This is absolutely true. I was part of the draft Powell committee in 2000 and we almost had him in until the prime minister of Israel was shot. That was his wifes last straw. 9-11 hasn't made it any better. Regardless of the speculation, I am pretty sure he pulled out of the State Department because of family. I wanted to kill his wife in 2000 but as the years have gone on I understand her position.

Form 180?
 

A couple of forklifts, and that's all the proof of WMD that club and bilmore need. Organized looting? There must have been WMD.

What scares me is the thought that the people in the Vice President's office who are responsible for our foreign policy think this way too.

Form 180?
 

In other words, it can't have been fraud because they convinced themselves, too.

Arnold Quiz
 

I don't know about this personal stuff, but Davis definitely did pay for play. The evidence is overwhelming. Arnold doesn't care about any donors position at all. They make think different, but the donors are not going to influence him one bit. However, he is a political neoghyte so his advisors have huge influence. He has a few advisors I can't stand, and it was these jerks that kept him from endorsing the open primary until it was too late. It is these advisors everyone should worry about. I tried to stop their appointments and have been trying to get them fired, but clearly my opinion doesn't mean much in the Governor's office. I couldn't even get LessinSF an appointment.

Form 180?
 

My last word, then you can respond.

Nice. I was talking about the overall smear. I have no idea if the Navy doc was lying about what he overheard his staff saying they were told in 1970. But I think that the people who put those ads together were being misleading at best.

I think that it is fair to say that the "I heard third hand" statement from the doctor is certainly is not the impression one got from watching the commercial that was aired. It implied that the doctor "served with Kerry" and that he *knew* that Kerry had not been injured in a firefight.

He didn't say "I didn't really serve with John Kerry, but I did pull a small piece of steel out of his arm, and I later overheard people who overheard people who said that there was no firefight when he was hurt."

As for lies, I am comfortable saying that the alleged observers of the rescue of Rassmussen are lying. If he was in no danger, and no one was shooting at him, why was Kerry's boat the only one to turn around to get him? And why would Rassmussen lie about it?

And O'Neill lied to Colson and Nixon. So he is a liar. As are those in the Swifties group who contend that they were non-partisan. Read the factcheck.org article about how they got their money.

I haven't read about the WMD deal. I saw when looking on Slate that Hitchens has a story about it, but who can trust that liberal rag about anything?

I'm done.

Form 180?
 

Pretty much. I think the conventional wisdom was so strong that there were WMDs that any evidence to the contrary was dismissed. Everyone overestimated Saddam's mental stability and intelligence. I should also point out, I think we still would have done to war if intelligence had discovered definitely there were not WMDs (although I have no idea how intelligence can prove a negative) but the administration would have focused on another excuse of the war.