Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

While I agree with your wish list, the fact that you think this is on Obama, such that it's a criticism you have of him, is absolutely ludicrous. With the exception of item 2, these all fall within the purview of state law and if you think anyone could get Congress to agree on a bill for any of that shit, you're out of your mind.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I fully understand that these are largely state level things. But that does not mean he cannot speak to them. And by at least attempting to preclude private prison operators, and end the federal death penalty (little used as it might be), he could initiate a broader movement.

I hate to use race here as the efforts desired should come from any candidate of any color. But because Obama is black, he could speak to this issue with more gravitas than some white politician who would be derided as a bleeding heart liberal talking about that which he does not understand. The "tough on crime" contingent in Congress would have a hard time criticizing a Black constitutional lawyer saying, "I grasp, uniquely, based on my skin color and my professional experience with the court system what is at stake here. We have a system that preys on people of color, and people without resources to fight back, and runs them through a process that makes money for private contractors who grease the pockets of politicians who vote for more and more prisons. You want to know what happens to the Black kid-- no, *any* kid you put in jail? His life is destroyed. He has a record. He can't get a job, and he becomes a recidivist offender. This needs to stop. And if the moral case doesn't work for you, think of the billions wasted incarcerating people for non-violent offenses every year. You on the right talk a lot about hating crony capitalists, and hating waste, fraud, and abuse... Here's your opportunity to put your money where your mouths have been for so long. And while we're saving that money, let's save the hundred or so millions we waste every year putting people to death. You'd agree with me, wouldn't you, that revenge at a cost of $3 million a death is indefensible? Then put on that fiscal hawk hat you're so fond of wearing on every other issue and help me save you money here."

As Bernie has shown, talking plainly and honestly gets you a lot of traction. You're right, however. This is walking into a buzzsaw. Obama would be pilloried by the right. But he's being pilloried by the right on everything he does. Why not do this?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I'm concerned that this might be exactly backward. That Obama speaking as a black man on this issue only makes it easier to dismiss as him "playing the race card" and undermining things.

Then again, they'd say that regardless of whoever was talking this particular bit a sense.

I'd love it if Obama did this, but I think it's a little much to criticize him for not doing so.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Obama cannot effectively talk to white people from the center on to the right when it comes to anything that has to do race. While what you said may be true (and he's definitely spoken about this stuff before), here's what they hear:

"As the first black President, I only care about issues that relate to black people and I want to free the thugs and drug dealers you fear so much who you believe cause so much violence in neighborhoods you actually never set foot in."

That's how it is. I have no idea why you think this country will rally around the President on these issues when they all just sat by and watched Congress try to shoot down any idea coming from the West Wing. Given the rhetoric from the fucking leading candidate of the Republican Party and his followers, what makes you think any of this stuff is actually achievable no matter what source if comes from?

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

the original plf did themed posts in sets of 3:confused:

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Thanks for explaining to us why doing what you want him to do would be ineffective. Thanks also for explaining why it wouldn't be smart for him to do. I get it.

See above. Sebby said it better than I can.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

The original plf didn't read this board. or post on it. ever.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Still don't. Seriously, what would I have to say in response to statements like:

"Trump looks to me like a perfect gaudy figurehead for a form of institutional and societal disorder and dysfunction already in place. The country's as ugly as he is, and his election would be a perfect love story -- a marriage of ideally suited equals."

It's is enough to make a sane man's head explode. Which is why it may be fine for all you fruitcakes and sociopaths to engage in your politics chatting board antics here, but I will have no part of it. Ever.

Re: I can't keep up with what's been going on.
 

I'm much more interested in the development of the bride in Penny Dreadful.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Agreed. I mean, institutional and society is pretty shaggy language, and it would be more accurate and comprehensible to say "perfect gaudy figurehead for institutions which are already overdetermined by the existing social disorder, managerial dysfunction and economic incoherence." Excellent point.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

At least they are carefully lawyering the end of the world.

The world will end not with a bang but a writ.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

This does not strike me as "careful" lawyering. In fact, it sound like the attorneys on the Trump legal team are as good at law-type stuff as Trump is at business-type stuff.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Losing hope for life on the dole:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-n...315-story.html

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Still for a PI guy this is no-lose. If Hil wins the traditional PI work has got to be reinvigorated. Trump? He is going to create a whole new slander/libel law that will put your ass in the green. I envy you.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

(1) The Republicans had a choice to make and they made it. For you to keep talking about Obama instead of McConnell shows that you are delusional or trolling. Hard to tell which. Both is a possibility, I suppose.

(2) In an election year, do you really believe that the speech you describe above would persuade *any* Republicans to support criminal justice reform? If so, which specific Republican legislators do you believe are susceptible to persuasion by Obama, and what about them makes you think this?

(3) If it is not otherwise clear, you are on crack.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Mitch McConnell respects nothing more than gravitas, amiright?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Yes suing newspapers Etc for libel on contingency is consistent with most of trumps other business plans in that they are designed to make a small fortune out of a big fortune.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

It's kind of quaint that you think this is still a thing.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Trump has great lawyers. The best. You're a Loser.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I am doing a bit of Wonking, but I can say without a hint of hyperbole that every single straight white middle-aged man who is a supporter of Hillary, with whom I interact in any manner, posts to this board.

I find no shortage of things for which to legitimately criticize Obama, but failure to single-handedly reform the criminal justice system isn't one of them. [I even secretly applaud him pardoning Demaryius Thomas' mother.]

Saturday was good for NeverTrump. Yesterday was not. I put odds at 80% Trump gets a majority of delegates and 18% for his failing to get the majority and a contested convention, and 2% for a Cruz win. I admit I may be biased in terms of Cruz success.

I am formally withdrawing my hasty pledge to vote for Hillary if Trump wins . I can't vote for her based on her position on abortion. I am awaiting Gary Johnson to pull out the Libertarian nomination. I lived in NM when he was elected governor (and while I don't recall exactly, I am pretty certain he was the first person I ever voted for as Governor). I am pretty sure my vote won't matter anyway and I fully expect Texas to go Trump by a decent margin. I don't see Hillary running all that close in Texas, particularly after all of the money that came in to support Wendy Davis, and the R margin of victory, and the lack of enthusiasm for Hillary generally

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You're missing the point. This is not about getting legislation passed.

I just want him to say those things to the public. Sure, it's a kamikaze mission. But it starts the discussion. Booker and Paul have tried to push for crim justice reform and gotten some airtime on the issue. The President could greatly assist in putting the matter more in the realm of urgent public debate.

I suspect your cynical view is Obama should not offer such a speech because its lack of success during his term would reflect badly on him. It might in the short term, but over the long term, I think it would be seen as brave and ahead of the curve.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You can't miss a point this much. You're just being a pain in the ass here.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I think you discount the existence of a lot of sympathetic, sensible white people. Having seen the system in action, there's never been a moment in my legal career where I didn't think it was corrupt, racist, and cruel and brutally unthinking where it needed to be nimble and open-minded. I think almost all lawyers, even prosecutors, would admit there are three scales of justice. One for the white and moneyed. One for the white and poor. One for the black and latino.

These people have families. They have friends. And when they see things like Ferguson on TV, or the endless specials about poor and minority people being freed from death row after being railroaded by corrupt law enforcement officers and prosecutors, the message resonates all the more.

It used to be, you could not sit among Republicans or even moderate Democrats from flyover land and say something like, "The system is rigged and racist" without being bullied as a soft liberal. In the wake of all these police killings, however, it's now the "tough on crime" person who looks like a clueless fool. Granted, my petri dish is upper middle class to affluent sorts (the average Trump lumpenvoter is still a bigoted moron and wants more prisons and shooting, not less), but it's a start. If I can turn to a blathering jackass running his mouth off about "getting tougher with the thugs" at a dinner party and tell him he's talking out of his ass, and that it's the cops we should be more radically policing, and the non-violent offenders we should be releasing, we're at a good moment... A moment where a lot of people who feel like I do on this issue will feel comfortable saying, "I don't want to elect a guy who's saying we should jail people like Joe Arpaio does. And I don't want a police department outfitted like a fucking SWAT team. This is bullshit used to get stupid Republican trash to vote for candidates. I think I'll vote Democratic until the GOP changes its tune. And if the Democrat is a 'tough on crime' sort, I'll vote for a third party, or stay home."*

Maybe I'm dreaming, but I think there was a moment here where Obama could capitalize on a shift in public perception. And I think there still might be one.

If nothing else, it'll keep Hillary from taking money from private prison lobbyists. That's reward enough.

__________
* I also don't think white America grasps that a 'prosecute 'em all and throw away the key' police state doesn't stop with minorities. These bloodthirsty degenerates have artillery budgets to justify, and their corporate prison lobbyist sponsors have growth projections to meet. When they've wrung all possible profit out of harassing and warehousing minorities, they'll work their way through the white population.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Get rid of this guy. Bye, bye, GGG, time to go home to mommy, you pathetic little rodent. Man, he just makes me want to crack him right in the face with a baseball bat. Except I am against violence. Be careful when you're taking him out. I don't like violence, but let's just say if he were to have a little accident on the way out, you won't have to worry about paying a lawyer to defend you.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

On behalf of Team Hillary, we'll consider your pledge fulfilled as long as you don't vote for Trump.

That's so completely mind-blowing to me, but okay.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You're saying this now? There are lots of those people, but they don't matter much in the GOP.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I wonder if the socks that aren't saying bad stuff about him, maybe those socks signed that agreement? Wait, I'm not posting about him. Whoa. Mind blown.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Not bloody likely. To the extent that such white people exist, they are already convinced. I think you are overstating in your head the number of people who will listen to such a speech by Obama as anything other than what I said they'd hear.

I disagree. This type of reform needs to come from a white guy with white hair who lives in the center of political spectrum. And the absolute only reason people have moved on this issue at all is that they have realized that drug addiction and the resulting arrests are not peculiar to the ghetto. They look around their suburbs and see 20% of the privileged white kids are in that deep heroin nod.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I don't normally respond to the same post twice, but I was just thinking that "what do straight, middle-aged men think" is a great metric for deciding what not to do or support. Especially if you make it white men.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

It is kind of amazing how many straight white middle aged democratic male Hillary supporters congregate here. Let's face it, our demographic is mostly split between Bernie and Il Toupee.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I predict you, and several others here, will slowly overcome your aversion to The Donald as the election approaches. It is part of how the Rs have gotten into this spot, the primary forces them to a crazier and crazier zone, and as the general election campaign progresses the crazy gets accepted as the norm.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

In our system of government, Republican legislators have to be particularly worried about a primary challenge from a more conservative Republican in even years.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

When he is elected, he will be, without a doubt, the healthiest dictator ever to hold elected office in this country.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

They don't matter at all in the GOP, but I wasn't limiting my comments to the GOP. And inevitably (soon), everyone will have to deal with crim justice reform because, as I noted, the militarization of our police and the mass jailings-for-profit are not going to stop with minorities. White America never does shit until something is almost beyond fixing, but in case you haven't noticed, the economic conditions that cause people to wind up victims of the system are only becoming more widespread.

You think the jailing-for-dollars/cops-should-have-tanks crowd doesn't have a business model for wringing dollars out of those suburban whites in the "heroin nod" TM referred to in his last post? White families with drug addict kids in the suburbs are a profit center they're salivating over a chance to exploit. The courts and cops get money for the processing and forfeitures. The drug treatment centers get huge state contracts to deliver substandard services. The jails for white kids have to be really nice, so the contractors and operators get major paydays. Oh, and the vendors (food, internet, phone, all tricked out to satisfy the community's need to be "tough" with junior, but not lock him in a facility too unlike a college dorm) cash out... Everybody in the chain gets to feast on dollars from middle class to affluent whites both directly and via tax transfers.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

If you try to disenfranchise me, I think bad things will happen, I really do. You could have riots.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I think, better than anything else, these two sentences succinctly summarize the flaws in your political ramblings. A person on a kamikaze mission is trying to stop the discussion, not start it.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I know. But you need GOP politicians to go along with your plan. Why would they do that when racism is a big deal to their voter base?

I don't know why you think so. American history doesn't suggest that's the case. And do you think the forces that are motivated by profit aren't smart enough to realize that the gravy train ends when you start doing that stuff to people like Ty's kids?

I think you're really discounting how big a factor racism is in all of this.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

My point was that republican reps have moved from caution in election years to flat out lunacy all the time. I was joking with you.

TM

Run the money-changers out of the temple; put the Carpenter in.
 

On the upside, the Pandora Billy Bragg and Wilco station just gave me Woody Guthrie's (via Mermaid Avenue) Christ for President.

Common ground between SEC_Chick and Not Bob?

Re: Run the money-changers out of the temple; put the Carpenter in.
 

There is a "Billy Bragg and Wilco" station on Pandora?