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Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-24-2006 03:14 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop


I did understand Rockefeller to have been saying that he was not permitted to speak to anyone else about his concerns, and I will confess that I don't know enough about the law there to understand why this might be so, but that I took him at his word.
All I can figure is that either there was no one with his level of clearance that was appropriate to talk to, or that he didn't trust any of them enough to do so. I suspect the former, and what he probably means is that there weren't any constitutional scholars with the requisite clearance that he could go to.

And, yes, as far as I can discern nothing in the constitution gives the president authority to take action beyond a grant of existing authority merely by telling congress he's going to do so.

sgtclub 02-24-2006 03:39 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think you and I agree that whatever was said when a few Senators and Representatives were briefed did not cure the separation-of-powers problems with what the Executive Branch was doing. I gather that club felt otherwise.
I wasn't trying to suggest that it cured any SOP problem, if there is one. The fact that he did brief members of congress does, however, cut against the claims by some that he was operating this program in a dark smokey room for nefarious purposes.

What about the president's war powers? I don't know enough about the act, but is that a possible source for authority? If so, I would argue that the resolution for the WOT, being later in time, supercedes FISA in the event of a conflict.

Quote:

. . . but that I took him at his word.
Funny that.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-24-2006 03:48 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The fact that he did brief members of congress does, however, cut against the claims by some that he was operating this program in a dark smokey room for nefarious purposes.
I don't think anyone has said Bush is using this for nefarious purposes. Fighting terrorism is laudable, everyone agrees, and that's it's purpose.

But there are plenty of crime-fighting programs that have a laudable purpose but an unconstitutional implementation. Look no further than any proposal to arrest all blacks because the crime rate is higher. It's not nefarious in purpose, is it? It's just trying to reduce crime.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-24-2006 03:49 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I wasn't trying to suggest that it cured any SOP problem, if there is one. The fact that he did brief members of congress does, however, cut against the claims by some that he was operating this program in a dark smokey room for nefarious purposes.
Just so we're clear -- I don't really think the President is using this program for "nefarious" purposes. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Quote:

What about the president's war powers? I don't know enough about the act, but is that a possible source for authority? If so, I would argue that the resolution for the WOT, being later in time, supercedes FISA in the event of a conflict.
Aren't we talking about the President's power as CIC?

And if you're arguing that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Afghanistan somehow trumps FISA, don't bother. It's later in time, but FISA specifically deals with wartime, too, so there's no reason to think that Congress was trying to change FISA when it passed the AUMF. An earlier, specific statute will trump a later, general one.

Quote:

Funny that.
It would be a dumb thing to lie about, since it would be so easily refuted.

taxwonk 02-24-2006 04:08 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Just so we're clear -- I don't really think the President is using this program for "nefarious" purposes. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.



Aren't we talking about the President's power as CIC?

And if you're arguing that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Afghanistan somehow trumps FISA, don't bother. It's later in time, but FISA specifically deals with wartime, too, so there's no reason to think that Congress was trying to change FISA when it passed the AUMF. An earlier, specific statute will trump a later, general one.



It would be a dumb thing to lie about, since it would be so easily refuted.
You can make all the arguments you want, but I bet the Cal professor gets his computer back pronto when the kid finds out they're tapping his 976 calls.

sgtclub 02-24-2006 05:09 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I don't think anyone has said Bush is using this for nefarious purposes. Fighting terrorism is laudable, everyone agrees, and that's it's purpose.

But there are plenty of crime-fighting programs that have a laudable purpose but an unconstitutional implementation. Look no further than any proposal to arrest all blacks because the crime rate is higher. It's not nefarious in purpose, is it? It's just trying to reduce crime.
Plenty has insinuated it (none here, just in general). It usually is mentioned along with a "Patriot Act" shriek as shorthand for civil rights abuses.

sgtclub 02-24-2006 05:13 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Just so we're clear -- I don't really think the President is using this program for "nefarious" purposes. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I didn't mean you specifically. I understand that you are focused on the SOP issue.

Quote:

Aren't we talking about the President's power as CIC?
I don't know, I haven't read the WPA since law school. I was hoping to get educated.

Quote:

And if you're arguing that the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Afghanistan somehow trumps FISA, don't bother. It's later in time, but FISA specifically deals with wartime, too, so there's no reason to think that Congress was trying to change FISA when it passed the AUMF. An earlier, specific statute will trump a later, general one.
I thought the one of the several resolutions passed gave the president pretty broad authority for the WOT, but if it is true that FISA provides for wartime, then obviously the reso wouldn't trump.






It would be a dumb thing to lie about, since it would be so easily refuted. [/QUOTE]

Tyrone Slothrop 02-24-2006 05:22 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Plenty has insinuated it (none here, just in general). It usually is mentioned along with a "Patriot Act" shriek as shorthand for civil rights abuses.
Well, wait a second. It's completely rational for Bush to worry more about another terrorist attack than about violating civil liberties. His job puts him in the position of balancing the two harms. You can understand why he would err on the side of the former (and in a recent profile in the New Yorker, his speechwriter Michael Gerson pretty explicitly said that that's what he's doing - you should find the quote on my blog and a link to the profile if you search for "Gerson"), but that doesn't mean that his judgment is correct. It's not nefarious, but it may lead to civil rights abuses. That's a reason to have other branches of government involved.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-24-2006 05:23 PM

Port (yes, whine) Issue
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I thought the one of the several resolutions passed gave the president pretty broad authority for the WOT, but if it is true that FISA provides for wartime, then obviously the reso wouldn't trump.
50 U.S.C. s 1811.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-24-2006 06:56 PM

quiz time
 
Who said this?
  • One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. ....
    Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans....
    The ... invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymkers to cope with insurgents bent on violence. This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure. . . . .

(a) Michael Moore
(b) Silvio Berlusconi
(c) Barbara Boxer
(d) William F. Buckley
(e) Ramsay Clark
(f) Nancy Pelosi
(g) Howard Dean

no cheating....

sgtclub 02-24-2006 07:24 PM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Who said this?
  • One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. ....
    Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans....
    The ... invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymkers to cope with insurgents bent on violence. This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure. . . . .

(a) Michael Moore
(b) Silvio Berlusconi
(c) Barbara Boxer
(d) William F. Buckley
(e) Ramsay Clark
(f) Nancy Pelosi
(g) Howard Dean

no cheating....
WFB

Spanky 02-24-2006 07:57 PM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
WFB
2.

sgtclub 02-24-2006 08:05 PM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
2.
He's been skeptical about the war from the start.

ltl/fb 02-25-2006 12:30 AM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
He's been skeptical about the war from the start.
and, he was pretty much the only non-liberal on there. dead giveaway.

Spanky 02-25-2006 01:09 PM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
and, he was pretty much the only non-liberal on there. dead giveaway.
Yes. Painfully obvious. A list of only conservatives would have been much better.

ltl/fb 02-25-2006 03:10 PM

quiz time
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Yes. Painfully obvious. A list of only conservatives would have been much better.
We are as one on this.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-25-2006 04:47 PM

I wrote up a trickier quiz based on pages W2 and W3 of today's Financial Times, but the computer ate it and I don't feel like doing it again. Sorry.

Hank Chinaski 02-25-2006 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I wrote up a trickier quiz based on pages W2 and W3 of today's Financial Times, ..........
Stop this. Go play with your kids, then later, go running. Tomorrow- repeat.

Hank Chinaski 02-25-2006 06:35 PM

Islam- the drunk Hank Post of religions
 
So a paper publishes a cartoon of Mohammed and all across the World hundreds of thousands of Muslims riot and bomb and kill each other-

and when someone blows up the one of the holiest Mosques in the Shite faith.......protests? (I mean outside Iraq)

sgtclub 02-25-2006 06:49 PM

Islam- [i]the drunk Hank Post of religions[/i]
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
So a paper publishes a cartoon of Mohammed and all across the World hundreds of thousands of Muslims riot and bomb and kill each other-

and when someone blows up the one of the holiest Mosques in the Shite faith.......protests? (I mean outside Iraq)
The peaceful protests in Iraq were huge. Shia and Sunni alike. And what is the difference between the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab Muslim world?* Democracy maybe? Maybe they are getting it? Maybe the long term strategy has some merit?

*excluding turkey.

Sidd Finch 02-26-2006 01:27 PM

Islam- [i]the drunk Hank Post of religions[/i]
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The peaceful protests in Iraq were huge. Shia and Sunni alike. And what is the difference between the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab Muslim world?* Democracy maybe? Maybe they are getting it? Maybe the long term strategy has some merit?

*excluding turkey.


Are you suggesting that Iraqis eat turkey, but the rest of the Arab Muslim world does not? If that's right, I guess the strategy of spreading our values is, indeed, working. Next they'll be dressing up as Halloween, and tossing Mardi Gras beads to women who lift their veils high enough.

Spanky 02-26-2006 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I wrote up a trickier quiz based on pages W2 and W3 of today's Financial Times, but the computer ate it and I don't feel like doing it again. Sorry.
That sucks. I love quizes. Computers suck. Don't feel like doing it again? I think you are forgetting who the epicenter of the universe is. How many times do I have to remind you.

Spanky 02-26-2006 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Stop this. Go play with your kids, then later, go running. Tomorrow- repeat.
Ty - ignore that. We want quizes. It will be like Jeopardy.

Spanky 02-26-2006 02:42 PM

Republican State Party Convention
 
I went to the state party convention this weekend. Every time I go to one of these I leave feeling like it is a miracle that the Republicans win any seats in California.

However, my Democrat activist friends say the same thing to me after they leave their conventions.

Sidd Finch 02-26-2006 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Ty - ignore that. We want quizes. It will be like Jeopardy.
No deer to watch?

SlaveNoMore 02-26-2006 10:07 PM

Republican State Party Convention
 
Quote:

Spanky
I went to the state party convention this weekend. Every time I go to one of these I leave feeling like it is a miracle that the Republicans win any seats in California.

However, my Democrat activist friends say the same thing to me after they leave their conventions.
Did your guy make it all the way thru, or did he have to take a nap in the middle?

Sidd Finch 02-27-2006 12:37 PM

Republican State Party Convention
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Did your guy make it all the way thru, or did he have to take a nap in the middle?
Another Republican trying to claim the Reagan mantle?

Replaced_Texan 02-27-2006 02:01 PM

Way to go South Dakota!

Fuuuuck.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 02-27-2006 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Way to go South Dakota!

Fuuuuck.
My only question is how quickly this gets to the Supreme Court. (assuming gov. signs it) A district court should enjoin it on the papers. Court of appeals might take a bit longer to uphold injunction. But still it will be decided by Mid-2007. So it's decided by Summer 2008. Good timing if you're a dem. (BTW, since the votes aren't there until Stevens or Ginsburg retires, I don't think cert. gets granted)

Spanky 02-27-2006 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Way to go South Dakota!

Fuuuuck.
I talked to Tom Campbell and he told me that in the texas primary, if someone doesn't get more than 50% of the vote there is a runoff. Is that true? He is saying he may not beat delay on March 7 but he will probably force him into a runoff.

Diane_Keaton 02-27-2006 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Way to go South Dakota!

Fuuuuck.
[the link is to a blog that describes how to perform an abortion] Interesting, but I think the author isn't getting that people would improvise and use different techniques and instruments. That's just a natural inclination (eh, don't have the onion for the recipe, but here let me use this potato). Okay, b/c her description of the process makes it seem like as long as you can get into the cervix, you can really go to town on the uterus, scraping and pulling. And she didn't even mention gloves, etc.

I think the only good part of her posting is that it will shock people into the reality that abortions will go on no matter what the law says and that people who warn about "back alley" abortions are not just stuck in the 70's or bluffing. She seems too quick to advocate illegal clinics where non-docs are trained and do the procedure. I think it would be better for the patient to have organizations that would, instead of performing the procedures, fund easy transportation out of the state. I mean free transportation and even volunteer escorts - I can easily see Americans rallying for this (I'd for sure give time and money to it). Of course, if you are sitting in the middle of the state, it's going to be a long ride.

Question: if the ban is upheld, and all abortions are illegal in SD, would that law apply to Native Americans? Could not doctor-staffed abortion clinics be set up in certain areas of SD? Seeing as SD docs aren't even performing the procedures now and doctors are coming into the state, why not?

(Yeah, Yeah, the docs could hit the Casino next door after the last D&C of the day, heh heh).

ETA:
Oh, and:
http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/ava...ine=1140982881
[add your favorite caption here]

Diane_Keaton 02-27-2006 11:27 PM

One more thing....
 
Looks like it's time to be a Democrat again. Just when I thought abortion and personal liberties were so entrenched that it was safe enough to be a Republican again. Damn the Repubs. Time to bring out the "I'm Pro-Choice and I Vote" buttons.

SlaveNoMore 02-27-2006 11:35 PM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Diane_Keaton
Looks like it's time to be a Democrat again. Just when I thought abortion and personal liberties were so entrenched that it was safe enough to be a Republican again. Damn the Repubs. Time to bring out the "I'm Pro-Choice and I Vote" buttons.
You live in a Democratic state. You act as if it actually matters that you vote GOP.

original Hank@judged.com 02-28-2006 10:50 AM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You live in a Democratic state. You act as if it actually matters that you vote GOP.
that strategy lost Gore Tennessee in 2000. he wishes lots of his cousins in the hills had voted then. you think Jeb bush punched the chad for his drugged daughter that year?

sgtclub 02-28-2006 08:12 PM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by original Hank@judged.com
that strategy lost Gore Tennessee in 2000. he wishes lots of his cousins in the hills had voted then. you think Jeb bush punched the chad for his drugged daughter that year?
Testing . . .testing . . . is this thing on?

Tyrone Slothrop 03-01-2006 11:50 AM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Testing . . .testing . . . is this thing on?
Yo.

sgtclub 03-01-2006 12:43 PM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yo.
Been a slow few days.

Shape Shifter 03-01-2006 12:48 PM

One more thing....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Been a slow few days.
What's to talk about? Everything's perfect.

Sexual Harassment Panda 03-01-2006 01:00 PM

Let's get this party (re)started
 
An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.

Oh yeah - we still got troops over there, don't we? How's that whole "Freedom is on the march" thingy doing?

Secret_Agent_Man 03-01-2006 01:04 PM

Let's get this party (re)started
 
Being pelted with rose petals and annointed with perfumed water does get tiresome after a time.

S_A_M


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