LawTalkers - Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Where did I attack him? I said, strategically, now that he's outed (he is... Rand Paul all but said his name at a rally in KY yesterday, and numerous Rs have been using his last name in various public forums), defend him. Otherwise, you look like you're hiding something. He becomes the defendant who's not in the room, the empty chair for Republicans to bash.

The better way to have done this would be:

1. Not have Schiff's hands all over the WB in advance;
2. Not have Schiff anywhere near this thing;
3. Have some milquetoast Congressman with no history for Rs to attack run point instead;
4. Get a WB without direct ties to Brennan and Biden (it's all hearsay anyway, so why not get a WB that can't be painted as biased?);
5. Do the depositions in public, so you can get the Perry Mason moments that can be packaged into short video clips and circulated broadly (See: Kavanaugh).

The Rs are blundering here. The defense that Trump has a duty to root out corruption and Biden just happened to be suspected to be corrupt is one of the dumbest I've heard. But the Ds haven't exactly plotted this out too well. This could have been executed much more cleanly.

Sebby, you said "fuck that attacking the messenger shit" because I pointed out that you were credulously treating a conservative op-ed writer as if he were a neutral journalist. Try some self-awareness.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 12:11 PM

Re: Potential H-Bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525933)

That's brilliant, Sebby. Since Republicans attack any Democratic leaders, Democratics should get rid of leaders and run Congress and their party as an autonomous collective.

My favorite part of your post is the suggestion that Schiff has become a GOP target "by his own efforts." Damn straight! If he didn't want to be delegitimized, why did he get so much seniority in Congress?

Schiff is ambitious. He could lead this without going on TV every four hours. He's made himself Trump's Javert. As I said, caveat emptor. He reaps the rewards that come with that fame, but it also makes him a target. Impossible to have it both ways.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 12:12 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525935)

Right. And I'll say it again: He's right.

So as the Ds are saying to the Rs right now, let's focus on the substance, not the speaker.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

11-05-2019 12:14 PM

Re: Potential H-Bomb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525933)

That's brilliant, Sebby. Since Republicans attack any Democratic leaders, Democratics should get rid of leaders and run Congress and their party as an autonomous

collective.

My favorite part of your post is the suggestion that Schiff has become a GOP target "by his own efforts." Damn straight! If he didn't want to be delegitimized, why did he get so much seniority in Congress?

The thing is, the Dems leading this process tend to be articulate, knowledgeable, and experienced, a total contrast to the white house. It's part of why Dems are rocking it among the college educated. You put up Schiff against Gym Jordan on the news, Jordan looks like an imbecile every time to any person who is listening instead of cheering on each grunted slur.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 12:17 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525934)

Could be wrong, but round the beltway, that name is the WB.

The state isn't doing anything to this guy. Trump and his political party are doing it. It is unfair. But it's also unavoidable. There was no way in hell that once Schiff decided to use this complaint to seek impeachment, this poor guy's name wasn't coming out.

The state *is* doing something to this guy. Those are government officials in the White House who are leaking his name to your Sperry guy, and they are doing it sitting in government officers on government furniture and on the government's dime. You are right that Sperry is not on the government payroll. It's just not clear to me why that should matter, if you have any sympathy for the guy who is the target of those efforts. Which you don't.

And "once Schiff decided to use this complaint to seek impeachment"? As if that were Schiff's decision to make. For one, he's not the chair of the Judiciary Committee. But you have your narrative, and facts don't matter to it, as you've explained. It's the White House's world -- you just live in it.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 12:18 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525937)

Right. And I'll say it again: He's right.

So as the Ds are saying to the Rs right now, let's focus on the substance, not the speaker.

OK, I'm happy to stop talking about the whistleblower entirely.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 12:28 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Sperry is not my guy. He is RCI's guy. Leaking is what DC does. The complaint you make here could be made against all of the anti-Trump leaks we've seen over the past few years.

Quote:

You are right that Sperry is not on the government payroll.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Trump and the GOP are not the state. This is political. Trump is being attacked by his political opponents, and he is fighting back. What's happening is political elected officials and political parties are fighting, as they do.

Quote:

It's just not clear to me why that should matter, if you have any sympathy for the guy who is the target of those efforts. Which you don't.

I do, unless he orchestrated this with Schiff. In which case, he can't say he didn't expect something along the lines of this. He's poking the world's biggest bear.

Quote:

And "once Schiff decided to use this complaint to seek impeachment"? As if that were Schiff's decision to make.

Let's not be intentionally obtuse here.

Quote:

For one, he's not the chair of the Judiciary Committee. But you have your narrative, and facts don't matter to it, as you've explained. It's the White House's world -- you just live in it.

Are you sincerely suggesting Schiff didn't push this toward impeachment. But I will credit your instinct in trying to say it was all another committee's doing. That's the kind of advice I was offering when I suggested all of this should be run in pieces, by various D politicians, to blunt Trump's ability to focus on any one "villain," like Schiff.

Adder

11-05-2019 12:34 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525932)

Your take on this is ridiculous.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 12:35 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525941)

Sperry is not my guy. He is RCI's guy. Leaking is what DC does. The complaint you make here could be made against all of the anti-Trump leaks we've seen over the past few years.

In my book, Sperry is your guy, because I had never heard of RCI or Sperry until you pointed out here that Sperry has outed someone as the whistleblower.

Leaking may be what DC does, although I will point out that the Republicans keep complaining about the "leaks" of witness testimony to the Intelligence Committee, when in fact the witnesses were releasing their opening statements to the press. If you think my "complaint" could be made against all of the anti-Trump leaks, then you are completely missing the point of what I was saying, which was about the way that you, Sebby, do or don't have sympathy for people who get targeted by prosecution and/or leaks. For some reasons, you have a great deal of sympathy for the targets of prosecution, but that sympathy evaporates entirely if the government is smearing someone but not prosecuting them. When the target is of the leak is a senior government official, as with the "anti-Trump" leaks,* something different is going on.

* It's the White House's world, and you just live in it.

ThurgreedMarshall

11-05-2019 12:37 PM

Re: Polls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525917)

Why do you think Biden is a better bet to take the Senate? (And what are you blaming me for? I will vote for either. If I don't and they lose California by a single vote, take me out to the shed.)

I can't explain it any more clearly. Biden makes white people who vote (and the important ones we need to peel off from Trump--blue collar and old ones who are scared of change) very comfortable. The more of those people vote for him in places with vulnerable Republican senators, the better the chances of flipping the Senate because people will just pull the lever for Dems if they're voting Dem at the top of the ticket.

I'm not going to argue that Biden may no longer be fully there enough to energize progressives. But I think this country has proven that overwhelming swaths of people vote based on a feeling. And Biden feels good and Trump feels bad to those people.

As for you last question, I need to take it out on somebody and you're as good a candidate as anyone else.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 12:48 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525941)

I do, unless he orchestrated this with Schiff.

Quote:

Are you sincerely suggesting Schiff didn't push this toward impeachment.

No, I'm suggesting that Schiff is one of a great many Democrats who have thought there needs to be oversight of this Administration and who have increasingly supporting impeachment as it has become clear that the President's corruptly used the government to smear a political rival and advance his own re-election, and that the way you position Schiff as the key figure in this drama has little to do with reality and much to do with the conservative talking points you keep regurgitating. You tell a story in which Schiff is the key actor, and then you complain that Schiff made himself the key actor.

I can tell a story about impeachment in which Schiff plays a minor role. Recall that the IG told him about the whistleblower's complaint, but not about the substance. Do you think that any other Democratic chair of the intelligence committee would have said, no worries, we don't need to know what that's about? Trump is getting impeached because he ran a foreign policy to advance his own interests, not the country's, and because lots of people knew about it. If you think the story is about Adam Schiff, it's because you don't want to talk about Trump.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 12:49 PM

Re: Polls

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 525944)

The only person I've given money to is Steve Bullock, who also makes white people comfortable. Not sure he'll still be in the race when I get to vote, though.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

11-05-2019 01:04 PM

Re: Polls

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 525944)

The thing is, we all know this is Biden's best argument. And I think people understand the argument, and it provides a good, strong skeleton for the campaign as a whole.

What I can't figure out is why he's not getting a campaign in place that puts meat on those bones.

Maybe the whole campaign comes to life in December and January, to time the peak for NH and Iowa, and he's just conserving resources, focus and energy right now. But if Joe Biden doesn't win this, the person he will need to blame is Joe Biden, not anyone else.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

11-05-2019 01:09 PM

Re: Polls

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 525944)

One other point, because unlike Sebby's blathering this whole issue is important - I do think Liz Warren has been making some of Biden's points for him lately. She's campaigning very well, but I think we are seeing some people emerge in polling and public statements who aren't going to vote for her on substance. Those folks may change their minds when and if it really comes down to her versus Trump, but they're going to be prime third party vote territory.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 01:21 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

I thought you said that facts don't matter to you?

I never said that. I said they don't matter to Senators voting on this.

Quote:

In your world, whether or not he orchestrated anything with Schiff is completely beside the point.

In your incorrect characterization of my world.

Quote:

If a conservative can somehow introduce that idea into "the narrative," say by publishing it under the guide of being a journalist and getting other people to repeat it, then it becomes part of the narrative.

If it happened, it's also part of the narrative. And these two things are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:

In this case, for example, there is absolutely no evidence that Schiff "orchestrated" anything with the whistleblower, but you have accepted that GOP talking point as part of your reality, so now it's as good as factual.

Really? This isn't proof of coordination, but there's enough evidence there to get past summary judgment, Your Honor: https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...608_story.html

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...ling-complaint

Now, why would a seasoned public servant, conversant with procedure, go to Schiff's Committee instead of going to the IG? (You''l explain it, but again -- this is evidence more than adequate to get past summary judgment.)

Quote:

There aren't enough laughing emojis for this. Schiff's put on more TV make-up in the past 3 years than the stars of all Real Housewives series put together. This guy is a ball of ambition, and he's riding his moment like any smart opportunist would. Trump is the best thing that's ever happened to the guy -- a moron who gifts Schiff almost as much free media time as he acquires himself. Schiff should run against Trump this year. Between the two of them, they've probably already got 75% of the airtime.

Quote:

You tell a story in which Schiff is the key actor, and then you complain that Schiff made himself the key actor.

Exactly. He makes it look political.

Quote:

I can tell a story about impeachment in which Schiff plays a minor role. Recall that the IG told him about the whistleblower's complaint, but not about the substance.

The Post and PBS seem to disagree.

Quote:

Do you think that any other Democratic chair of the intelligence committee would have said, no worries, we don't need to know what that's about?

No. But they wouldn't have done so in the clearly opportunistic manner Schiff has, which makes it look political.

Quote:

Trump is getting impeached because he ran a foreign policy to advance his own interests, not the country's, and because lots of people knew about it.

Yes he is.

Quote:

If you think the story is about Adam Schiff, it's because you don't want to talk about Trump.

I think when Trump is acquitted, Schiff's handling of the matter will be viewed as a lot of the reason why.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 01:32 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525949)

I never said that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525930)

Whether it is or it isn't bullshit is immaterial. This is not about facts. This is a game.

The bold is in your original, btw.

Quote:

I think when Trump is acquitted, Schiff's handling of the matter will be viewed as a lot of the reason why.

If and when Republican Senators decline to object to Trump's corruption and manifest unfitness for office, they will try to duck responsibility, and you will be buying it. The passive tense is very useful here -- Schiff's handling "will be viewed" as the reason -- there's an object, but we don't talk about the subject of the sentence. It's like the Never Trump Dance

Quote:

The Never Trump Dance

Please nominate a Democrat we can vote for!

No not that one.

Nothing is ever the Republicans' fault. If only Democrats had done something different.

ThurgreedMarshall

11-05-2019 01:33 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525945)

I thought you said that facts don't matter to you? In your world, whether or not he orchestrated anything with Schiff is completely beside the point. If a conservative can somehow introduce that idea into "the narrative," say by publishing it under the guide of being a journalist and getting other people to repeat it, then it becomes part of the narrative. In this case, for example, there is absolutely no evidence that Schiff "orchestrated" anything with the whistleblower, but you have accepted that GOP talking point as part of your reality, so now it's as good as factual.

No, I'm suggesting that Schiff is one of a great many Democrats who have thought there needs to be oversight of this Administration and who have increasingly supporting impeachment as it has become clear that the President's corruptly used the government to smear a political rival and advance his own re-election, and that the way you position Schiff as the key figure in this drama has little to do with reality and much to do with the conservative talking points you keep regurgitating. You tell a story in which Schiff is the key actor, and then you complain that Schiff made himself the key actor.

I can tell a story about impeachment in which Schiff plays a minor role. Recall that the IG told him about the whistleblower's complaint, but not about the substance. Do you think that any other Democratic chair of the intelligence committee would have said, no worries, we don't need to know what that's about? Trump is getting impeached because he ran a foreign policy to advance his own interests, not the country's, and because lots of people knew about it. If you think the story is about Adam Schiff, it's because you don't want to talk about Trump.

I'm not sure why you're arguing this with him. If he looks at what happened (and the fucking transcript is as clear as it gets even after we know that the Administration took other damaging shit out) and thinks to write that this was orchestrated by the whistle blower and Schiff, then he's not worth talking to.

Witness: Officer, that man tried to strike that woman.
Officer: I will arrest him.
Sebby: That witness and that officer have orchestrated a charge against that man.

It's blatantly fucking stupid. And you're wasting your time.

TM

ThurgreedMarshall

11-05-2019 01:33 PM

Re: Polls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525947)

Can't agree more with any of this. Hire Axelrod and get serious.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 01:38 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525949)

For the love of Christ, the article *you* just linked to says:

Quote:

The revelation, first reported Wednesday by the New York Times, prompted an immediate jab by the president, who suggested without evidence that Schiff may have helped compose the whistleblower complaint.

Just to be clear: "without evidence" means there isn't any evidence, not that there is.

But wait, there's more, answering your other question:

Quote:

“He knew long before, and he helped write it, too,” Trump said at a news conference alongside Finnish President Sauli Niinisto. “The whole thing is a scam.”
An attorney for the whistleblower, whose identity has not been made public, rebutted Trump’s claim.
“Absolutely not,” attorney Mark Zaid said.
Andrew Clark, a Trump reelection campaign spokesman, questioned whether the whistleblower’s legal team coordinated with Schiff or his staff. Zaid said there was no contact between the whistleblower’s lawyers and Congress until weeks after the complaint was filed with the intelligence community’s inspector general.
A spokesman for the House Intelligence Committee, Patrick Boland, said, “Like other whistleblowers have done before and since under Republican- and Democratic-controlled committees, the whistleblower contacted the committee for guidance on how to report possible wrongdoing within the jurisdiction of the intelligence community.”
At no point, Boland said, “did the committee review or receive the complaint in advance.”
The committee staffer who interacted with the intelligence officer was given only “the very bare contours” of the allegations, said a committee aide, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the aide was not authorized to speak for the record. As is common when such calls are received at the committee, the staffer advised the individual to seek legal counsel and file a complaint with the inspector general — either at the officer’s home agency or with the intelligence community inspector general.
The officer — whose identity, aides said, is not known to Schiff — did just that, lodging a formal complaint with Intelligence Community Inspector General Michael Atkinson on Aug. 12.

Why do you keep repeating Donald Trump's baseless claims when the truth has been reported? Why are you such a sucker for his lies?

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 01:42 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

The bold is in your original, btw.

Here's the full quote, in context:

Whether it is or it isn't bullshit is immaterial. This is not about facts. This is a game. If I'm playing this game, and my aim is to take out Trump, I want to make this about the substance of the call, not the prosecutor. The best way to do that is to have multiple Democrats speak about the investigation - spread the responsibility around, in a sort of "decision by committee" manner that obscures responsibility and individual actions. This blunts any attempt by Trump to create a referendum on Schiff.

Where do I even comment about what I think? I'm commenting on what matters within the political game afoot. And it is played as a game.

Quote:

I won't buy that at all. I've made it crystal clear that R Senators will vote their political needs, not the facts. Schiff will help them do that. He's the counter-villain.

Quote:

Nothing is ever the Republicans' fault. If only Democrats had done something different.

When you lose, you don't blame the winner for winning.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 01:58 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Just to be clear: "without evidence" means there isn't any evidence, not that there is.

This would be clever, except I didn't say there was evidence Schiff "composed" the complaint. Trump said that, and there is no evidence of that. I said there's evidence Schiff "orchestrated" and "coordinated" with the WB. The WB reached out to his office in advance, so he knew the Complaint was being filed. This is evidence of both.

That undoes most of your second point. Now, let's undo the rest. From the PBS article:

The whistleblower who raised concerns about President Donald Trump’s dealings with Ukraine spoke to staffers on the House Intelligence Committee before filing a formal complaint, giving Democrats advance warning of the accusations of wrongdoing that triggered their impeachment inquiry.

Quote:

Why do you keep repeating Donald Trump's baseless claims when the truth has been reported? Why are you such a sucker for his lies?

I'm saying something entirely different than Trump. Trump is making shit up. I'm saying what any good counsel or PR person would faced with these facts: That there is evidence Schiff coordinated or orchestrated. Is it evidence likely to prove such a case? Who cares? The only measure that matters here is creating enough of a whiff of a set-up to create cover for the R Senators who are going to have to hold their noses during the acquittal.

And Schiff is a significant cause of it, intentionally or now (which is also immaterial). Someone else should be in charge of this, to neutralize that problem.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 02:26 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525955)

The whistleblower who raised concerns about President Donald Trump’s dealings with Ukraine spoke to staffers on the House Intelligence Committee before filing a formal complaint, giving Democrats advance warning of the accusations of wrongdoing that triggered their impeachment inquiry.

If I give you advance warnings of accusations, it's highly likely - if not "inescapable" as you'd prefer - that I've told you what those accusations are. Or maybe I haven't. But again, this is evidence of possible coordination, or orchestration.

I'm saying something entirely different than Trump. Trump is making shit up. I'm saying what any good counsel or PR person would faced with these facts: That there is evidence Schiff coordinated or orchestrated. Is it evidence likely to prove such a case? Who cares? The only measure that matters here is creating enough of a whiff of a set-up to create cover for the R Senators who are going to have to hold their noses during the acquittal.

And Schiff is a significant cause of it, intentionally or now (which is also immaterial). Someone else should be in charge of this, to neutralize that problem.

If you are working in the clerk's office at the federal district court, and a man walks in and says, I'd like to file a tort claim, and you say, this is the federal court, you need to go to the country court, you haven't orchestrated anything. When you say that Schiff orchestrated with the whistleblower, you are misstating what happened, and you are either doing it consciously, because you like Republican propaganda, or you are doing it unconsciously, because you are susceptible to Republican propaganda. If you brought a claim based on purported conspiracy between the whistleblower and Schiff and tried to make it past summary judgment on what we know, you would lose. You keep using the word "evidence" but there is no evidence of the facts that go to key distinction, whether Schiff knew that a whistleblower had some kind of complaint or whether he worked with the whistleblower to shape the substance and manner of the complaint. There is no evidence that anyone on the Intelligence Committee did anything more than say, go to your IG. And you acknowledge as much when you talk about giving Republican Senators a whiff of cover. When your argument is about whether or not there is a whiff of evidence of something, you should stop arguing, because it means there isn't any evidence, and you should ask yourself when you are so committed to arguing for things that aren't true.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-05-2019 02:55 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525956)

Reread that paragraph from the PBS article.

That’s adequate evidence to create an issue of fact. That gets you past summary judgment in state and fed court.

I’m not parroting something that isn’t true. I’m saying I’ve got enough to create the issue of fact. And I do (you’ve even fallen into arguing contrary factual allegations, which is often how one loses his summary judgment argument).

You keep arguing that you have the true and actual facts and I do not. You miss the point. The point is, is there enough to assert there was coordination or orchestration. Yes, there is enough to do that. And that’s all the Rs need.

Sans Schiff, there’s probably not enough to credibly create that question of fact.

Adder

11-05-2019 03:09 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525954)

I've made it crystal clear that R Senators will vote their political needs, not the facts. Schiff will help them do that.

This is where you go all stupid. They don't need any help from Schiff or any Dem to vote their political needs. They will do it based on whatever pretext is available and there's nothing the Dems can do, or should have done differently, that would change that.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 03:17 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525957)

Reread that paragraph from the PBS article.

I see nothing in PBS article that says anything more than what is in The Washington Post article I quoted (and many other articles written in the month since then). Please quote the paragraph here.

Adder

11-05-2019 03:29 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Old Shifty Schiff clearly got to Gordon Sondland now too.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 03:34 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 525960)

Old Shifty Schiff clearly got to Gordon Sondland now too.

"Oh, that quid pro quo? Yes, I do remember it now."

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

11-05-2019 03:49 PM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525953)

Why do you keep repeating Donald Trump's baseless claims when the truth has been reported? Why are you such a sucker for his lies?

Is there a way to pin this, or to just schedule an autoresponse every time Sebby posts? Can someone help a newbie here?

ThurgreedMarshall

11-05-2019 04:17 PM

Biden Article

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525870)

For example, here's an awesome article by Olivia Nuzzi about Joe Biden that is not horserace journalism.

Thanks for sharing this article. It actually is awesome.

And this is what I'm talking about:

'He is swarmed. Women reach out to him, linking their arms in his. He bows his head and lifts their hands to his mouth for a kiss and, later, when you ask them if that makes them uncomfortable, they look at you like you have three heads. This is the best day of their lives. Are you insane? There are men, too, who embrace him, wrapping their hands around his neck. He calls every male-presenting human he encounters “man.” I watched him call a baby “man.” As in, Hey! How¬areya, man?! He is as skilled a selfie-taker as any influencer, and in the span of 30 or 40 minutes, he snaps hundreds, leaning his body against the rope that separates him from the crowd, straining it one, two, three feet forward. He really does connect with every living being this way, talking about their jobs or their health care as he listens, sometimes crying with them, whispering in their ears, taking their phone numbers and promising to call them. He does, in fact, do that. Everybody is Joe Biden’s long-lost friend. Every baby is Joe Biden’s long-lost child. A little girl in Iowa City called him her uncle Joe. On the Fourth of July in the town of Independence, he took off, running through the parade like a dingo with somebody’s newborn. As hard as it might be to believe that anything in this realm could not be bullshit, it’s simply true that this isn’t.

His own loss is staggering in its scale and cruelty: Neilia, his wife, and Naomi, his infant daughter, killed in a car crash. Beau, his oldest son, who survived that crash with his brother, Hunter, killed decades later by brain cancer. And it’s as though in that loss he’s gained access to an otherwise imperceptible wavelength on which he communicates in this way, with the eyes and the hands.

“I don’t know how to describe it, but sometimes some people would walk up with a lot of emotion in their face, and without even hearing their story, he could connect with them,” John Flynn, who served as Biden’s senior adviser in the White House, said. “He would know it was either one thing or another, and he would just know how to approach them and to get them to gently open up if they wanted to. And if they didn’t want to, he just said, ‘Hey, I’m with you, and I’m there for you. I feel your pain.’ ”'

If he can figure out how to convey this effectively over the air, he will crush Trump. I fear that he's always only playing to the people in the room. And that only works for the people in the actual room.

How has he not hired Axelrod to run this shit for him by now? Axelrod could whip him into shape and really put this right here to use:

‘Age isn’t just a weakness for Biden. There are a lot of old people in America, and many of them really like the former vice-president. They don’t see a doddering, out-of-touch, exhausted man, as the 20- and 30- and 40-somethings who cover the campaign and dominate social media do. They look at him and see, well, a statesman from the popular recent administration who has moved to the left as the party has, if not quite as much as his younger rivals. These are the people that really vote in elections, and, to them, that all seems pretty good. “I worry when I read that he is even with somebody. I just read a piece this morning that he’s even with the Warren lady,” Anne said.

“I really think he’d be wonderful in getting us back with the people that are overseas. I think he’s wonderful dealing with people. I would definitely support him. I think he knows what’s going on with all those people … He’s a wonderful man. He really is wonderful, and he cares about people.’

Finally, I hate how the author acts like he has somehow failed by not having Obama's endorsement by now. That's just stupid. Obama will wait to see how things are shaking out and weigh in when it means the most and will result in some useful momentum. He will do what's absolutely best for the Party at the exact right time. And that's how it should work.

TM

eta: I found this part very amusing:

'“They have him in the candidate-protection program,” Axelrod says. “I don’t know if you can do that. I don’t know if you can get through a whole campaign that way. Either he can hack it or he can’t hack it. If you’re worried the candidate can hurt himself talking to a reporter, that’s a bad sign.” (Biden declined to be interviewed for this story.)'

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 04:59 PM

Re: Biden Article

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 525963)

eta: I found this part very amusing:

'“They have him in the candidate-protection program,” Axelrod says. “I don’t know if you can do that. I don’t know if you can get through a whole campaign that way. Either he can hack it or he can’t hack it. If you’re worried the candidate can hurt himself talking to a reporter, that’s a bad sign.” (Biden declined to be interviewed for this story.)'

When she's good, she's very good. She is dating Ryan Lizza, who also can be very good. His Esquire article about Devin Nunes' family farm in Iowa is also excellent.

ThurgreedMarshall

11-05-2019 05:05 PM

Re: Biden Article

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525980)

When she's good, she's very good. She is dating Ryan Lizza, who also can be very good. His Esquire article about Devin Nunes' family farm in Iowa is also excellent.

Yep. Read that one ages ago.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop

11-05-2019 05:35 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Boy, I wish I were watching Chelsea-Ajax.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-06-2019 09:34 AM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525959)

I see nothing in PBS article that says anything more than what is in The Washington Post article I quoted (and many other articles written in the month since then). Please quote the paragraph here.

I'd just put the quote in my previous post to which you were responding!

Here it is again:

PBS:

The whistleblower who raised concerns about President Donald Trump’s dealings with Ukraine spoke to staffers on the House Intelligence Committee before filing a formal complaint, giving Democrats advance warning of the accusations of wrongdoing that triggered their impeachment inquiry.

ME: If I give you advance warnings of accusations, it's highly likely - if not "inescapable" as you'd prefer - that I've told you what those accusations are. Or maybe I haven't. But again, this is evidence of possible coordination, or orchestration.

The above is exactly what I wrote, and you ignored.

But if we've learned anything from last night, it's that Democrats can and should beat Trump in 2020. I know there's a theory that this impeachment thing is helping that effort. I'm skeptical of that. And we know it's certainly not the cause of last night's success. The candidates didn't run against Trump or make impeachment a big issue. They ran on issues as far as I could see. Maybe the wise strategy is to stick with that, to run on Trump fatigue, but to avoid losing an impeachment and in so doing alienating swing voters and galvanizing Trump supporters around a battle the Democrats don't need to engage?

I know the inside skinny on Bevins is he was a flawed and unpopular candidate and KY has a history of D governors. But it's just as likely this is a sign that McConnell is in trouble in 2020.

sebastian_dangerfield

11-06-2019 09:42 AM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 525958)

You always need to provide a pretext for the acquittal. Even the Senate can't just engage in naked jury nullification here.

I don't see many good pretexts here. The "duty to investigate Biden" angle is a dead lock loser. It's got to be crying entrapment, and that involves Schiff and the WB. Mostly Schiff.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-06-2019 11:19 AM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525999)

I'd just put the quote in my previous post to which you were responding!

Here it is again:

PBS:

The whistleblower who raised concerns about President Donald Trump’s dealings with Ukraine spoke to staffers on the House Intelligence Committee before filing a formal complaint, giving Democrats advance warning of the accusations of wrongdoing that triggered their impeachment inquiry.

I didn't ignore it Sebby, I actually asked you to be specific about what you were talking about because you just referred to a paragraph in an article. Asking you to clarify what you are talking about it is pretty much the opposite of ignoring you. What you've just quoted is not inconsistent with and says no more than The Washington Post article I quoted extensively, or any of several other articles about the same thing that have appeared in the month since this happened. The reported facts are set out in more detail in The Washington Post article and have not changed. They do not show that Schiff "orchestrated" anything. Again, The Washington Post:

Quote:

A spokesman for the House Intelligence Committee, Patrick Boland, said, “Like other whistleblowers have done before and since under Republican- and Democratic-controlled committees, the whistleblower contacted the committee for guidance on how to report possible wrongdoing within the jurisdiction of the intelligence community.”

At no point, Boland said, “did the committee review or receive the complaint in advance.”
The committee staffer who interacted with the intelligence officer was given only “the very bare contours” of the allegations, said a committee aide, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the aide was not authorized to speak for the record. As is common when such calls are received at the committee, the staffer advised the individual to seek legal counsel and file a complaint with the inspector general — either at the officer’s home agency or with the intelligence community inspector general.

Those are the known facts. Referring to them in a less specific way ("spoke to staffers") creates more ambiguity about what happened, but doesn't actually give you more to work with.

Schiff did not "orchestrate" anything. When you work so hard to insist that he did, you reveal your own biases and sympathies. The only people saying that are carrying water for the President. Why are you?

Tyrone Slothrop

11-06-2019 11:23 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

David French on Twitter:

Quote:

At this point the whistleblower could be Hunter Biden himself and it wouldn’t change one syllable of the “transcript” nor would it change one syllable of sworn testimony establishing the president’s demand that an ally investigate a conspiracy theory and a political opponent.

I understand why the MAGAverse is obsessively tweeting about the whistleblower, however. They believe he/she is a blatant partisan, and they want to make the scandal entirely about him/her and not about the overwhelming evidence of Trump’s abuse of power.

Good defense lawyers make any ethical argument that can help their client. I get that. That’s mainly how you should look at the MAGAverse pundit/host class. They’re Trump’s defense lawyers. But they don’t admit their role, and they’re not bound by a code of ethics.

Adder

11-06-2019 11:24 AM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 526000)

You always need to provide a pretext for the acquittal. Even the Senate can't just engage in naked jury nullification here.

They absolutely can and they will find something regardless of what the Dems do. Heck, I think it will most likely come down to just "let the voters decide."

Tyrone Slothrop

11-06-2019 11:32 AM

Re: Whistling down the alley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 526003)

They absolutely can and they will find something regardless of what the Dems do. Heck, I think it will most likely come down to just "let the voters decide."

When Sebby says "you always need to provide a pretext for the acquittal," the subtext is that he is thinking as an advocate for Trump's defense.

Actually, it's really more text than subtext.

Pretty Little Flower

11-06-2019 11:39 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 526002)

David French on Twitter:

Ha! Substitute “Sebastian” for “MAGAverse” and you can insert this quote in response to virtually every Sebastian post. Sebastian will, of course, deny that he is a ardent Trump apologist, but French already anticipated this.

Tyrone Slothrop

11-06-2019 11:43 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 526005)

Say what you will about National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

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