Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Um, what exactly are you missing about my role here as devil’s advocate?

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Did you think I was hiding that? Of course I’m acting as if his defense lawyer/PR flack. How else would this discussion of the political game and legal machinations be interesting? Have everybody talk about only one side’s strategy?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

There’s nothing unethical about trying to deflect jury attention away from the defendant’s actions. If you can play to jury nullification, you’re required ethically do so.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

For God's sake, man. Why are you arguing this bullshit?

The transcript that the fucking President himself released supports the whistleblower's claim. The witnesses, including the moron Trump supporter who got an appointment in exchange for his million dollar campaign contribution has confirmed the Administration's approach to this. The White House actually used a pretext to withhold the assistance that Congress authorized.

What the fuck could Schiff possibly have orchestrated? Sebby is completely full of shit on this and I have no idea why you're humoring him.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Incorrect. I’m not apologizing for Trump. He clearly sought to arm twist Ukraine to get info on Biden. If that’s something warranting his removal from office, and the prosecutors succeed in the adversarial process designed to address that, he’ll be removed.

But whether what he did is defensible is another question. I see loads of ways to succeed in avoiding the penalty Democrats desire to impose.

I’m not a Trump apologist, but it is interesting as all hell to play his defense attorney/PR strategist. He’s a dream client. They guy can’t stay out of trouble and manages to get into trouble in truly unique ways.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

A devil's advocate is only useful if arguing in good faith. When you say that Schiff orchestrated the whistleblower's complaint, you are not arguing in good faith.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You've repeatedly said he's going to be acquitted in the Senate, so where's the challenge in that?

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

This process will not be played out in good faith. It’s a by any means necessary situation. And politically, smearing Schiff is an effective tool which can be used while still asserting you’re acting in good faith (to the extent you need to have that pretext for the public).

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You still need a pretext! You have to take all precautions available here. Jesus Christ.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

TM is right.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No, he sought to arm twist Ukraine to get them to announce an investigation. They were not after information. They were after something they could use to convince you of "both sides." The announcement itself is enough.

You mean if he becomes enough of a political impediment to the GOP, he will be removed. That you keep looking at this as anything other than a political question just makes you look stupid.

You and I have different notions of a dream client. I prefer ones who actually listen to advice and act to get themselves out of trouble. I mean, your way is great for billing but it's also nice to be useful.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Your first sentence swallows everything you've posted on this. The fact that none of what you or the Republicans generally are arguing makes any fucking sense at all matters. Trump will not be impeached. Republicans will point at anything--including the made-up bullshit you keep repeating here--to justify their votes. Only cult members and morons* need be convinced their votes are based on anything other than retaining power.

Maybe you think you're playing devil's advocate. But you're not. You're spouting fucking nonsense.

TM

*Both groups making up 90% of the Republican Party

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Didn't it come out that they didn't even want an actual investigation? They just wanted the announcement of an investigation and they wanted it to be done on Fox.

The fact that he isn't being dragged from the office as we speak is an embarrassment for this entire country.

TM

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Except there’s probably still going to be an acquittal, and Schiff will be one the significant pretexts for it.

You continually assume I’m arguing that Schiff orchestrated something. I’m not. I’m arguing there’s enough to assert that he orchestrated something. I don’t care about whether he did or didn’t. That’s immaterial to the question of whether, using Schiff, among other pretexts, Trump’s actions are “defensible” from a political or PR perspective.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

The rest of us all understand that many people, especially Trump defenders, are not arguing in good faith. When it suits you, you pretend to care about that. For example, your complaint that CNN was showing bias when described a Trump lie as such. When you post about Schiff, you weren't saying, Republicans will lie about his role. You said, he orchestrated the whistleblower's complaint, and you linked to articles that did not say that. It's one thing to recognize that other people spread falsehoods, and another to spread them yourself.

There isn't unless you make shit up, and everyone knows it. You're either being stupid or dishonest. Pick one and own it.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

This is your characterization. The actual quote I used discussing whether there was orchestration is as follows:

I do, unless he orchestrated this with Schiff. In which case, he can't say he didn't expect something along the lines of this. He's poking the world's biggest bear.

This was stated in regard to whether the WB was being unfairly smeared. You'll note, this uses a caveat some people like to use from time to time, "if." Look it up. It's really useful word.

There's more than enough for any PR flack or defense lawyer to say, without appearing stupid or dishonest, "I think we need to look into how and when Schiff became involved. A lot of this seems to be orchestrated from behind the scenes."

Defense lawyers have to say things far worse all the time, as they often represent unquestionably guilty clients. Pointing a finger at Schiff here, where there's more than adequate plausible deniability of the allegation one is acting in bad faith, is not a heavy lift.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yes. I said that somewhere ;)

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

The transcript and depositions, from what I've seen, are bad. And even with the odds in Trump's favor, one never knows for certain how public sentiment might change between now and November 2020. (Read: We have a recession.)

If I'm an R operative, I think like Remy deciding to shoot Andy Stern at the end of Casino: "Why take a chance?" Pile up as many pretexts as one can, because you might need them.

It is insane to go into any proceeding without as many Plan B or concurrent defenses as one can employ. Schiff is one of those pretexts.

Your argument is effectively, "The Rs needn't sweat this, as the Senate is certain to acquit." I tend to agree the deck is heavily in Trump's favor there, and conviction a very long shot. But still... why not stack it even further, as much as you can? It's a hell of a ballsy strategy to put all of your chips on jury nullification, and those depositions, and that transcript, are really fucking "bad facts."

The Democrats would be in a better posture if they didn't have a target like Schiff out there. I suspect Pelosi is staying away from this as much as possible, and directing others with high profiles to do so, because she saw the deflection defenses coming miles away.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Ok. Distinction without a difference. Either way, he sought a political favor by extorting Ukraine with military aid.

No. I'm saying in a situation like this, if you're Trump's people, you give the Senate every excuse imaginable. You serve them up every conceivable explanation they can run with (and you beg and promise every goody you can) in return for that acquittal.

I'm not sure if I were actually around him I'd feel that way, but conceptually, in terms of creating bizarre and fascinating problems for himself, he is a dream client. Maybe the best way to describe him would be as "Fantasy League Dream Client." I imagine IRL, I'd be fired by him, and possible arrested for battery of him, within a week.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Oh, bullshit.

There isn't any evidence of that, and you know it.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Anyone remember when LTers was ABBA or GwNC telling fuck stories?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It's not. Your version, in which he sought information, credits the nonsense claims that there was any information to find. It also lends at least casual credence to the "Trump wanted to fight corruption" story that will be central to the defense.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Ok. I wasn't trying to convey that. Either way, Trump was trying to get something via extortion.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Can you remind me which ethics rule requires this? Thanks!!!

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

ПРЕАМБУЛА: ОТВЕТСТВЕННОСТИЮРИСТА, [4]

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Fair.

TM

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Prepositions. They'll sabotage your comeback every time.

There's absolutely evidence adequate enough to assert there might have been coordination or orchestration. A similar thing happened with this Russiagate situation, which you might recall. There was all of this discussion about collusion and everyone looked for it, but in the end, there weren't facts sufficiently tying Trump to Russia. But guess what? A ton of people still believe it happened, or think it might have happened. Scant evidence - but just enough to justify a sincere investigation - coupled with a relentless media campaign (spearheaded by Schiff, who did endless TV appearances) has created a "question of fact" regarding whether Trump "colluded" with Russians.

The fact that Schiff said he didn't know about the complaint, then later changed his story, is more than enough for any decent lawyer to be able to argue the following to a judge:

"Your Honor, there's convenient timing, and a witness with motive to possibly hide facts telling two different stories. We need discovery on this."

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Okay, you gotta give him this one?

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Dude, there may actually be something seriously wrong with you--you really are susceptible to these ridiculous fucking arguments.

There is no there there with Schiff. The Republicans have absolutely nothing. This is the clearest case of abuse of office to extort a foreign power for personal political gain as can exist. If the whistle blower worked for an Administration that had any integrity at all, they would have brought the complaint through normal channels. Because they knew that this Administration is as corrupt as can be, they contacted a member of Congress to protect the integrity of the process. There is no evidence of any type of influence or coordination or nefarious anything. None. The fucking transcript confirms the whistle blowers take. Period. How the fuck could Schiff coordinate that? The pretext is stupid on its fucking face. There is only bullshit innuendo to be greedily eaten up by you and the Republican Party.

But this is what you need to focus on because it's been said to you like a dozen fucking times already. If it wasn't Schiff it would be someone else. If they couldn't get idiots like you to act like this is something, they'd pick something else. It. doesn't. fucking. matter what it is. Why do you think they want to out the whistle blower? So they can find a text he wrote 10 years ago supporting his local Democrat or so that they can say he was passed over for a promotion or whatever stupid shit they can find from absolutely anyone. They're just making it up. And here you are carrying their water like some version of Bobby Boucher come to life.

You're right that they want a pretext. The failure of your argument that you can't see is that you think whatever pretext they choose fucking matters to their cult members. I'm sure they'd love to have something better to point to. But they know it just doesn't fucking matter.

Gingrich: "What you are watching is a legislative coup d'état. They tried for two years to get rid of Donald Trump using the Russian deal, and when that collapsed on them, and they looked like they were stupid when Mueller reported, they had to find a new gimmick. This is the new gimmick."

Graham: "I've written the whole process off ... I think this is a bunch of B.S."

The Republican Party is a fucking cult. Nothing they say can be taken seriously at all. But here you are:

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0Exd...XEJ2/giphy.gif

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, told impeachment investigators that Trump made the quid pro quo demand on a Sept. 7 phone call with Gordon Sondland, the president’s handpicked ambassador to the European Union, according to a transcript of Taylor’s Oct. 22 deposition.

“President Trump did insist that President Zelensky go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016 election interference and that President Zelensky should to do this himself,” Taylor testified, according to the transcript, which was released by Democratic impeachment leaders Wednesday.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...qKRUlFHWrDea_Y

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

https://media.giphy.com/media/YzvPqrOVoS9tC/giphy.gif

TM

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Are you and Ty impaired? I'm not carrying anyone's water. I'm telling you I think they:

1. Need a decent pretext (I think you're wrong that they can just "say anything");
2. Schiff is the best pretext they have.

Our disagreement comes down to you concluding that a pretext is not necessary. Or that any one will do. I'm not so sure. I'd want a few, and from what I see, Schiff is the best of those available. And while there may be no there there, there is enough of a hint of there there to say there's a there there, and that's all you need.

So drive this through the cement between your ears: I am not saying Schiff coordinated. I am saying I could make that argument effectively, regardless of its truth. I don't know how or why this escapes you. But I suspect it's because you want to be able to argue that I'm buying the GOP talking points on Schiff. I'm not. I'm telling you, however, that they are necessary because Trump needs a deflection, and they are effective. We agree on the latter, not on the former. Strangely, that means you think the "cult" of the GOP will acquit more easily than I do.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

That's a really bad fact. How you can cite this and then out of the other side of your mouth say the GOP won't need a really solid pretext to acquit is beyond me. Those senators will need every excuse they can find.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Yeah, why I post 3x a year now.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

No, you fucking clown. You can't make the argument for the many reasons pointed out to you already. You can only make it to lunatics who are too stupid to understand that it is the flimsiest pretext in the world or too full on Kool-Aid to care. And the fact that you keep acting like you can make this argument to anyone other than the people who fall into those two categories means you are either in the midst of a fucking stroke or too deluded as to your own non-existent brilliance to get it.

And the fact that you keep trying is the exact same thing as carrying their water.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Why do you keep saying this? Why will they need a solid pretext? Why will they need every excuse? Explain that. They can point to anyone involved and say that that person made the whole thing up and even if they don't they will argue that this type of quid pro quo "happens all the time" or "doesn't rise to the level of an impeachable offense." They're doing this shit already.

Again, it doesn't fucking matter what the pretext is or even that there is a pretext. And the fact that you think the one they came up with is even halfway decent means you're either completely brain-dead as to what is happening or insane.

TM

Let's make it even easier
 

This is why Republicans can use any pretext they want.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...newday-vpx.cnn

Any argument that they need a good one or that the one they chose is effective is ridiculous. These people are fucking dumb as bricks. And the dumbest ones (and I'm not being unfair--uneducated whites are the dumbest, most racist voting block in this country) make up the base of the Republican Party.

TM

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Thanks for clarifying the kind of nonsense you're peddling. Go ahead and assert whatever you want, but one of the risks of making those kinds of arguments is that you lose all credibility. That doesn't trouble people who argue in bad faith, and it doesn't seem to trouble you.

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Re: Whistling down the alley
 

Apparently there are 49 bots viewing the fashionable board. Probably trying to find out if Sebby still hates spread collars.