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Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I can see why you'd think that's crazy. It is. Which is why I did not and would not say that. What I said was most people don't think about race (or any other similar issue) to the extent we do here. Most people have other shit occupying their minds.

I don't think you understand anything at all. Most white people don't think about race (as it applies to their daily lives) because they don't have to. You should meet some people of color.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I think you have the chicken before the egg there. Trump is starting the whole thing with "MAGA," as Reagan did in 1980 (it's a borrowed Reagan slogan). He says things need to revert to an older mythical reality. That reality was cruel to minorities, so they react to that. Trump doesn't point out groups and accuse them of trafficking in identity politics. He creates them.

This is getting really dumb. Trump does not create groups who traffic in identity politics any more than any person who's ever sat in an office and created policy that harms them has. His MAGA pitch and his constant singling out of groups asking for fair treatment and acting like those groups are oppressing whites is the same. fucking. thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

Each group has a right to be pissed. But when the transgendered in the military (statistically a near non-existent group) are given airtime commensurate with police murders, people are not properly prioritizing things. You're trying to break down the door where kicking it open and expanding the breach is the best approach.

I wish I could have this conversation with someone who actually lives in the real world. People who are shit on object to being shit on. There isn't some overarching group of decision makers who can place one group's concerns ahead of the other when it comes to this stuff. If you think the Democratic Party is that organization, you are a fool.

And before you bring up how good the Republican Party is at sticking together, let me preempt by saying that their message is: "Hate the other, crazy religious shit, and no to everything except tax and regulatory cuts." There is no nuance, complexity, or empathy involved in what they want. So it's easy for them to always walk in lock-step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

If you fix what BLM seeks to fix, you'll open a dialogue on prejudice that will eventually get to the issues of the transgendered.

Are you serious? Because if you don't realize that what you're saying is that a dialogue will never be open, I can't help you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

If you take something that applies to a tiny number of people and place it alongside something like police abuse and murders, which impact millions of people, you harm the latter by giving people an argument it is of a kind with less significant or even frivolous grievances.

I am genuinely confused by what is happening in your head. Our government deals with a multitude of issues on a number of fronts. If you're telling me that there is only enough energy or focus to handle one group's demands for equal treatment at a time, first I'll look at you like you're an idiot, then I will have to ask why there is so much energy and focus for creating bills that are constantly taking away people's rights. Transgendered people in the military wasn't really an issue until this Administration made it one. Pence is constantly trying to harm the LGBT community. There are new attacks every fucking day. You're expecting those communities to sit down and shut up until black people are no longer killed, arrested, prosecuted, etc. at higher rates? This is pure nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

And that's what Trump wants.

Yes and no. Trump hasn't discovered anything. He's preaching to the basest belief system to which his base is receptive--one that has been exploited for fucking centuries. And he lets Pence and Miller shit all over people with actual policy because the two things align and he cares not one whit about anyone but himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I think Black people have a unique set of requests neglected for so long that they get to go to the front of the line.

I speak for the entire black community by expressing our most sincerest thank you! But this is not how anything works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

Once those are being addressed, then we can get to the rest. I understand that's discriminatory, but I think that's the necessary approach.

I won't address the substance of what you're saying because asking people to sit down and shut up with their grievances because "we only have the bandwidth to deal with one group of minorities at a time," is absolute insanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

If the press isn't covering BLM, it has gone away. Attention is what it needs, and if it isn't getting attention, it's not being addressed. Police shootings and systemic abuses of black citizens didn't suddenly stop. The media just decided it was more fun to focus on #metoo (has a sex angle) and the transgendered (this creates a debate over gender fluidity, which is divisive). Black people being jailed? That's so... 2017.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but this up-and-down is a constant theme when it comes to race in this country. We've been talking about it in the same way for forever. It's the same with mass shootings. But I don't get your point. The reason why energy for the issue goes away is (1) because people in this country are fucking racist and selfish and if it doesn't impact them, they have limited outrage and (2) because of this general sense of complete indifference to other people (or anything other than their wallets), elected officials don't need to ever do anything about it. There are no penalties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

"White" doesn't fit when you consider things like transgenderism or #metoo. There, people of all colors and backgrounds are being asked to consider grievances.

I find your description of the active steps our government is taking to remove protections and rights from people as "grievances" to make an argument that people should move to the back of the Grievance line to be a true dick move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

Racism has been a problem forever. So yes, it goes to the front of the line.

Again, this is not how it fucking works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

And here's what that "solidarity" - that shotgun approach where all voices, of the tiny groups, and the huge groups, of the people advocating for gender fluidity awareness and the people getting shot by cops - has achieved: A. A modest justice reform bill; B. The firing of a bunch of male execs for harrassment (to be replaced with more male execs); and, C. Arguments about who can use what bathroom in school and whether a boy can wear a dress to prom, or whether those five military personnel in transition can go into the field of battle.

So, in the face of new (and let's just limit it to what's new for the sake of this discussion) legislation and policy designed to harm whole swaths of people, everyone who is not a straight, white, male should shut the fuck up until racism and racist policy is solved. This is your grand proposal? This is your solution? There is something truly wrong with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I didn't vote for Trump last time and I see no reason to vote for him this time.

You were just in the group of people who threw their vote away, enabling him to reach office.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

No. I have prioritized, for strategic advantage.

Ah. This is strategy. Got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

No. She is only a leader of a faction of the Democrats.

Stop it. She is new and shiny. She gets her voice heard. She is no different than any other fucking politician other than she is better at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

Moderate Democrats do not annoy me. I was completely happy to see Hillary win as I figured she'd be fine for the economy.

And yet not happy enough to actually vote for her. That's brilliant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I am annoyed with people who make tactical errors. Taking Trump's bait and making this election a grievance festival of myriad groups is a tactical error on which he is banking.

I cannot stress this enough. There is no single decision-making entity that decides on strategy. And if you think people should (or will) just table issues that are essential to their lives, you are a moron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I think it's stupid. And I think you need to separate the strategy discussion from the defense of the people making the somewhat "niche" grievances.

I think this is stupid and impossible. You can talk strategy in the abstract all you like. But if the Administration bans the transgendered from serving, those people (and everyone else) should not lay down because blacks don't get a fair shake in court yet. If gay people aren't allowed to buy goods because store owners disapprove of their life choices, they shouldn't shut up until blacks aren't beaten by cops in the streets. You act like everyone is in touch with each other and has the ability to not only focus everyone's attention on the issues on your subjective list of importance, but that if they did, any of it would be solved in a reasonable amount of time. What you're saying is fucking stupid and unrealistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

A person fighting against Trump's discriminatory policies has every right to do so. But as a matter of strategy, it's not the wise choice to give every person with a complaint the same level of bullhorn.

Who is giving out these fucking bullhorns? What are you talking about? No one is controlling the outrage that results from the institution of discriminatory policies. Jesus fucking Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

It's wiser to deal with the more acute problems targeted by things like BLM first, and avoid Trump's bait and run on health care.

I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I'm not screaming or yelling. I'm telling you I see unforced errors being made.

Ah. Unforced errors. That's surely not an even dumber way of characterizing this shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

Don't assume for a minute that I do not blame McConnell. I absolutely do. But I'm not writing about McConnell here. McConnell is on the other side. It's his job to make the Democrats lose. What I'm saying is, McConnell is very good at what he does. Why make unforced errors when up against such a formidable opponent?

This is your response? Let's break this down.

There is a wrong that needs fixing
Democrats pass a bill in the House to address it
McConnell and Co. kill it
Instead of holding McConnell responsible, you spend all your energy talking about how Democrats aren't doing anything right and how what they're doing isn't "strategic" because there isn't enough collective energy to care about the bill the Republican Party just killed and then you argue that Democrats might get support for a fix for rampant and deep societal and structural racist issues if only they'd focus on just that

This is your analysis? You can't possibly be this stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 522853)

I don't care about political correctness except as it applies to comedians and entertainment. I am concerned that we are gelding artists and political correctness risks making our entertainment suck. But personally, no, I do not care much about political correctness. I'm generally polite, so it's not usually an issue for me. Like all socially aware people, I can gauge a person's sensitivities and modulate the humor to avoid offense.

We are not talking about the substance of political correctness. I was using an analogy. Holy shit.

TM

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 522957)

You act like everyone is in touch with each other and has the ability to not only focus everyone's attention on the issues on your subjective list of importance, but that if they did, any of it would be solved in a reasonable amount of time.

Quote:

[W]hen the boy’s basketball team from Roosevelt High School in Minneapolis, traveled to small town Jordan, Minnesota, for a game in January, a group of young men on the home side of the gym bleachers unfurled a large “TRUMP 2020” banner across their knees. The Roosevelt coach later complained on Facebook, writing: “Please explain how and why this is appropriate at a high school basketball game?”

Presented with just that much information, you can probably fill in the demographic details of everyone involved. And all of them— the kids from the almost entirely white rural host school and the kids from the predominantly black and Latino urban visiting school—knew exactly what that banner meant. It meant: Fuck you. It meant, “we” took “our” country back.

The only person who’d be confused, or who’d infer a more complicated message, is a sophisticated professional adult whose political worldview depends on a condescending belief in America’s essential racial innocence. A person, in other words, who sees the world as a small child does—as opposed to, say, a teenager. Indeed, much of the media discussion around the Jordan incident danced around any explanation of why a black high school basketball coach and his mostly black players would have a problem with that particular banner, while quoting an endless parade of aggrieved white adults pretending at ignorance. As one local parent told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune: “I have no issues with a Trump flag at our game last night in regards to racism. It could be seen as ‘It’s actually pretty cool [young people] are paying attention to things going on in our country.’” Frankly, liberals, you should be thanking the president for finally getting teens—or at least one very specific subset of them—to care about politics!

“Our little town is the least racist,” the same parent told the paper. “I just don’t understand how this got turned into a race thing.” A Roosevelt High mother meanwhile, pointedly noted that the Roosevelt students had stayed in the locker room for the performance of the national anthem, implicitly associating them with the prominent black athletes known for protesting police brutality—a prime affront, sure to provoke the red-faced consternation of various white fans and sports franchise owners. This was still another obvious explanation of what their little demonstration “meant,” for an audience pretending not to hear it.

Alex Pareene

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 522957)

I don't think you understand anything at all. Most white people don't think about race (as it applies to their daily lives) because they don't have to. You should meet some people of color.

This is getting really dumb. Trump does not create groups who traffic in identity politics any more than any person who's ever sat in an office and created policy that harms them has. His MAGA pitch and his constant singling out of groups asking for fair treatment and acting like those groups are oppressing whites is the same. fucking. thing.

I wish I could have this conversation with someone who actually lives in the real world. People who are shit on object to being shit on. There isn't some overarching group of decision makers who can place one group's concerns ahead of the other when it comes to this stuff. If you think the Democratic Party is that organization, you are a fool.

And before you bring up how good the Republican Party is at sticking together, let me preempt by saying that their message is: "Hate the other, crazy religious shit, and no to everything except tax and regulatory cuts." There is no nuance, complexity, or empathy involved in what they want. So it's easy for them to always walk in lock-step.

Are you serious? Because if you don't realize that what you're saying is that a dialogue will never be open, I can't help you.

I am genuinely confused by what is happening in your head. Our government deals with a multitude of issues on a number of fronts. If you're telling me that there is only enough energy or focus to handle one group's demands for equal treatment at a time, first I'll look at you like you're an idiot, then I will have to ask why there is so much energy and focus for creating bills that are constantly taking away people's rights. Transgendered people in the military wasn't really an issue until this Administration made it one. Pence is constantly trying to harm the LGBT community. There are new attacks every fucking day. You're expecting those communities to sit down and shut up until black people are no longer killed, arrested, prosecuted, etc. at higher rates? This is pure nonsense.

Yes and no. Trump hasn't discovered anything. He's preaching to the basest belief system to which his base is receptive--one that has been exploited for fucking centuries. And he lets Pence and Miller shit all over people with actual policy because the two things align and he cares not one whit about anyone but himself.

I speak for the entire black community by expressing our most sincerest thank you! But this is not how anything works.

I won't address the substance of what you're saying because asking people to sit down and shut up with their grievances because "we only have the bandwidth to deal with one group of minorities at a time," is absolute insanity.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but this up-and-down is a constant theme when it comes to race in this country. We've been talking about it in the same way for forever. It's the same with mass shootings. But I don't get your point. The reason why energy for the issue goes away is (1) because people in this country are fucking racist and selfish and if it doesn't impact them, they have limited outrage and (2) because of this general sense of complete indifference to other people (or anything other than their wallets), elected officials don't need to ever do anything about it. There are no penalties.

I find your description of the active steps our government is taking to remove protections and rights from people as "grievances" to make an argument that people should move to the back of the Grievance line to be a true dick move.

Again, this is not how it fucking works.

So, in the face of new (and let's just limit it to what's new for the sake of this discussion) legislation and policy designed to harm whole swaths of people, everyone who is not a straight, white, male should shut the fuck up until racism and racist policy is solved. This is your grand proposal? This is your solution? There is something truly wrong with you.

You were just in the group of people who threw their vote away, enabling him to reach office.

Ah. This is strategy. Got it.

Stop it. She is new and shiny. She gets her voice heard. She is no different than any other fucking politician other than she is better at it.

And yet not happy enough to actually vote for her. That's brilliant.

I cannot stress this enough. There is no single decision-making entity that decides on strategy. And if you think people should (or will) just table issues that are essential to their lives, you are a moron.

I think this is stupid and impossible. You can talk strategy in the abstract all you like. But if the Administration bans the transgendered from serving, those people (and everyone else) should not lay down because blacks don't get a fair shake in court yet. If gay people aren't allowed to buy goods because store owners disapprove of their life choices, they shouldn't shut up until blacks aren't beaten by cops in the streets. You act like everyone is in touch with each other and has the ability to not only focus everyone's attention on the issues on your subjective list of importance, but that if they did, any of it would be solved in a reasonable amount of time. What you're saying is fucking stupid and unrealistic.

Who is giving out these fucking bullhorns? What are you talking about? No one is controlling the outrage that results from the institution of discriminatory policies. Jesus fucking Christ.

I'm not going to repeat myself again.

Ah. Unforced errors. That's surely not an even dumber way of characterizing this shit.

This is your response? Let's break this down.

There is a wrong that needs fixing
Democrats pass a bill in the House to address it
McConnell and Co. kill it
Instead of holding McConnell responsible, you spend all your energy talking about how Democrats aren't doing anything right and how what they're doing isn't "strategic" because there isn't enough collective energy to care about the bill the Republican Party just killed and then you argue that Democrats might get support for a fix for rampant and deep societal and structural racist issues if only they'd focus on just that

This is your analysis? You can't possibly be this stupid.

We are not talking about the substance of political correctness. I was using an analogy. Holy shit.

TM

It's like you've never even seen a double standard before. But I know you have.

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 522958)

Alex Pareene

Thanks for that article. I'm going to put it to use.

Also, I realize this is more of a feigned ignorance issue, but I think it falls into the purview of this book's thesis.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....jlV%2BvLzL.jpg

I actually was able to get a white family member (and former Republican) to finally read it and he was shocked at the number of things that applied to him and that he had actively been using in discussions about race.

TM

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 522960)

I'm not fragile I'm sensitive.

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 522957)

Who is giving out these fucking bullhorns? What are you talking about? No one is controlling the outrage that results from the institution of discriminatory policies. Jesus fucking Christ.

Um, excuse me sir, but I think your hair's on fire. Also, I think you know all too well who is handing out the bullhorns. The liberal Trump-hating press, that's who. Running around handing out bullhorns to every aggrieved snowflake microaggressee in the echo chamber. And soon we have some transgendered military reject bleating so loudly into the bullhorn about how their safe space was culturally misappropriated that we can't even stop the police from killing African Americans.

Also, actual fashion post. I don't really know who Ezra Miller is, but his look at the Met Gala had me remembering the night I went a little heavy on the Ayahuasca:

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/v....w700.h467.jpg

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 522962)

And soon we have some transgendered military reject bleating so loudly into the bullhorn about how their safe space was culturally misappropriated that we can't even stop the police from killing African Americans.

Sebby wants a World where there is some dictator to control which complaint is heard first- like a new Franco- "say what you will about the complaint dictator, but he makes the complaints get heard in the proper order!"

Re: And do whiteys have to identify with Robert E. Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 522963)

And/or Sebby is playing the usual game people play when they want to dismiss complaints they don't personally care about.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

To Sebby's suggestion that Trump's threat to the rule of law is minor:

Quote:

Last night at our DC event I picked up on a question someone had been asked on the panel: Basically, how bad can it get? To me it’s already gotten that bad and in a way and place that is at once front and center and yet oddly invisible. Virtually everyone closely involved in the origins of the Russia probe has either been fired, had their career ended or in key cases face real threats of imprisonment: Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page, Baker, Ohr … I could list off at least half a dozen other names. Some of these folks will be fine. And in most cases the criminal jeopardy is probably somewhat notional. But it’s not about the individual people. It’s the warning it sends to everyone else through the federal bureaucracy – law enforcement, intelligence and everywhere else – that the real law is power. This is how autocrats discipline and destroy civil institutions and the rule of law.

TPM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 523013)

To Sebby's suggestion that Trump's threat to the rule of law is minor:

TPM

I think putting white hats on the bureaucratic state is wildly dangerous. And naive.

These people aren’t all collateral damage. Some, like Comey, are. Some, like Szrock, are not.

The law ultimately is power and money to a great extent. If you shoot at the bear, you’d better kill him.

The bureaucratic state is quite fine. Its tentacles are everywhere, and its power eclipses Trump’s. It’s just having a bit of a fit at the moment because it’s not used to being in its current situation. That leads to these melodramatic laments.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

What was that Sebby was saying about Trump's economy?

https://mobile.twitter.com/mattygles...49747344441344

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 523015)

Interesting - https://reason.com/2019/05/10/barr-flubbed-badly/

I think there is a similar question that should be asked of Rosenstein, which is, how could you have participated in the decision knowing you would likely be a witness?

Barr fell down on the job. But it strikes me Rosenstein is open to disciplinary action by the bar here (which will never occur, of course, because the bar doesn't want to be charged with having a liberal agenda when they do things like enforce ethics rules).

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 523017)

The DC bar that is used by every attorney for reciprocal admission to most states (not CA or NV, though)? Does it have an enforcement arm or just a robotic rubber stamp?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 523018)

The DC bar that is used by every attorney for reciprocal admission to most states (not CA or NV, though)? Does it have an enforcement arm or just a robotic rubber stamp?

I'm not sure of the procedural ins and outs, but Clinton's Arkansas license to practice was suspended for a few years. I think the special prosecutor who took over from Starr was involved.