Originally Posted by Jack Manfred (Post 409803)

commenting on ABBA's situation

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 409806)

Th It's a "perfect" thing that a lot of white women can't attain any more than black women.

Originally Posted by Jack Manfred (Post 409803)

I know I spent yesterday doing Internet research on acid reflux medication instead of commenting on ABBA's situation, but I did catch up on the board. As the only regular poster who regularly prosecutes DV cases, here are my thoughts on the subject, taken with the appropriate caveats and exclusions, as I've never had the pleasure of meeting her.

First, ABBA's situation is the best rebuttal to the poster who argue that mandatory arrest statutes should be repealed. ABBA's a professional, educated woman who had the misfortune of falling for a controlling, addicted, charismatic dirtbag. He knocked her up. He brings absolutely nothing to the table, yet ABBA can't really imagine being without him. He's checking up on her, and his "punishment" is hate sex with a hot woman. I don't claim to have an answer for domestic violence. It's an endemic problem that often has substance abuse, mental illness, financial, and childcare components to it. But the common denominator in these cases is control. The victim feels powerless; the aggressor dominates the victim in any way possible. The State has to step in to break that cycle. That's almost always a messy propostion.

Given that it sounds like ABBA has a child with at least an emotionally abusive man, she needs to formulate a plan, seek out resources, and stick to the plan. She needs to get into counseling to deal with all the issues that are on the surface and the ones lurking underneath. I'd want to know if the babydaddy had any history of violence or access to guns. Before giving any ultimatums (and cutting a guy off counts as an ultimatum in this context), I'd discuss exactly what, when, and where I was going to do with someone trusted who has expertise on this subject: a victim advocate, someone who works with battered women (even if ABBA doesn't think she has anything in common with a battered woman), or someone who went through this themselves. The most dangerous time for a woman in ABBA's situation is when she finally decides to leave.

Good luck, and for Heaven's (and your daughter's) sake, don't sleep with the babydaddy again.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409819)

Not to take the side of ABBA's ex -- but what exactly would you say he should be arrested for? I heard a lot of bad stuff -- drug problems, control issues, "cock-blocking," etc. But nothing about violence, physical abuse, etc. (I may have missed something, though.)

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409819)

Not to take the side of ABBA's ex -- but what exactly would you say he should be arrested for? I heard a lot of bad stuff -- drug problems, control issues, "cock-blocking," etc. But nothing about violence, physical abuse, etc. (I may have missed something, though.)

Beyond that, when a mature, intelligent, professional woman is continuing to have sex with him -- do you think that suggests that she really isn't such a "victim" as you paint her to be?

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) (Post 409754)

At $8m/year, Granderson isn't cheap.

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 409818)

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409824)

Contrast with:

http://franfranfran.files.wordpress...._backstage.jpg

TM

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409819)

Beyond that, when a mature, intelligent, professional woman is continuing to have sex with him -- do you think that suggests that she really isn't such a "victim" as you paint her to be?

Originally Posted by robustpuppy (Post 409821)

I read Jack's post not to say ABBA was currently a victim but that signs signs point to a risk that ABBA could become a victim.

He sounds scary to me precisely because he is *so* controlling. He's already wreaking havoc in her life.

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 409818)

That's not true. While you are correct, that it is a "perfect" thing, it is much easier for white women to attain it. And in the modelling biz, the bias is clear (at least it was in the 80s). My sister's friend, Lana Ogilvie, was a very successful model in the 80s. She's black but has white features. We had the same agent. As far as I can recall, she was the only black model my agency represented at the time. Things haven't changed much.

Originally Posted by evenodds (Post 409827)

To stretch this beyond ABBA's situation, what you have said does suggest a classic victimhood, a lack of agency. It is often only when we get beyond a situation that we see the reality of abuse in a relationship when it was not clear at the time.

Anyone tends to normalize his or her situation as a coping mechanism. A person with maturity, intelligence and profession is often at more of a disadvantage because his or her social network sees only the high functionality and assumes that he or she is in control and no intervention is needed.

I am preparing myself for the traumatic end of a close friend's relationship because all of the warning signs are there. The fact that he is a very successful man does not make his victimhood any less victim-y. It just makes him less likely to ask for and receive help. For now, he is in denial and there is nothing to be done until something newly awful happens and he again reaches out for help.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409804)

I wouldn't go that far. In fact, I absolutely disagree with that sentiment. I think that people should date whoever they think is attractive. I just think it's fucked up when that class of people is defined as "anyone who is not of _______ race."

The problem, as I see it, is that we've been bombarded with one type of beauty ideal. And saying that people are attracted to who they're attracted to ignores this. The result is, black women, for example, are left on the outside.

I sure as hell didn't date within my race (shorthand for "black" since we've already discussed mixed race realities). But I find all kinds of women attractive. My first wife was white and blond. My wife now is black with African features. I'm not saying everyone should be like me (as I sure as hell ain't perfect and it's fairly clear how shallow I am). But I can certainly understand why black women get so upset when they are constantly being told and shown that they are completely undesirable.

TM

Originally Posted by ABBAKiss (Post 409817)

Thanks. He is a recovering crack addict and yes, he does have a history of violence. I am not concerned that he will be violent with me so much, but you make some excellent points about control. He has now canceled our meeting for tonight because I "only want to talk about the past" and he "wants to have fun like we used to." Um....classic lack of getting the problem here. Oh -- and I've started drowning myself in vodka again. Awesome.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409819)

Not to take the side of ABBA's ex -- but what exactly would you say he should be arrested for? I heard a lot of bad stuff -- drug problems, control issues, "cock-blocking," etc. But nothing about violence, physical abuse, etc. (I may have missed something, though.)

Beyond that, when a mature, intelligent, professional woman is continuing to have sex with him -- do you think that suggests that she really isn't such a "victim" as you paint her to be?

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 409818)

That's not true. While you are correct, that it is a "perfect" thing, it is much easier for white women to attain it. And in the modelling biz, the bias is clear (at least it was in the 80s). My sister's friend, Lana Ogilvie, was a very successful model in the 80s. She's black but has white features. We had the same agent. As far as I can recall, she was the only black model my agency represented at the time. Things haven't changed much.

Originally Posted by ABBAKiss (Post 409817)

Oh -- and I've started drowning myself in vodka again. Awesome.

Originally Posted by Jack Manfred (Post 409834)

I don't think the
ABBA should really talk to one or more professionals in real life. See a therapist. Go to an AA meeting or Al-Anon. Otherwise this could get much worse before it gets better.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409830)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "victim."

ABBA says she "regularly hate-fucks" her ex. That doesn't sound like "victim" behavior. That sounds like someone who is being a fool, and exposing herself to the dreadful transition from being a fool to becoming a victim of something vastly more serious.

But your talk of victimhood and the need for intervention and so forth seems, to me, to take all responsibility out of ABBA's hands.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409830)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "victim."

ABBA says she "regularly hate-fucks" her ex. That doesn't sound like "victim" behavior. That sounds like someone who is being a fool, and exposing herself to the dreadful transition from being a fool to becoming a victim of something vastly more serious.

But your talk of victimhood and the need for intervention and so forth seems, to me, to take all responsibility out of ABBA's hands.

Originally Posted by evenodds (Post 409839)

I endured the relationship, I left him, and I had to come to grips with what drove me to be with him and stay with him in the first place.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409838)

Nah. There's a little of both. She let's herself get snowed, initially because she liked him and he probably comes off well in person (if not on paper). At this point, he's interfering with her ability to have other relationships, but they're still exposed to each other because they have a kid. It may be stupid of Abba to fuck this guy when she wants out and he's so controlling, but she is the victim of him being a fucking asshole. He cheats on her and then tries to keep her from being with anyone else. He essentially won't let her break it off (or won't accept it). And Abba's in a crappy position right now and he's taking advantage of it.

She's not a domestic abuse victim, but to what extent she's part of a problem isn't really at issue, is it? Everyone told her to stop fucking him. The question is, how can she extract herself from this douchebag, safely?

TM

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 409798)

Joke aside, I am. Why the fuck should I care what my forebears or those who share an odd quirk of genetics with me did?

Should I be proud of U2? Hang a portrait of a Czar on the wall? My grandmother was part Austrian. Lord knows, I can't honor their most famous son.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 409781)

2. Call me an angry crank, but I'd much rather find common ground than celebrate what I am or you are. Who the fuck cares? Is there any difference between having five scotches with an Indian versus five with an Englishman or a Japanese person? I have yet to meet an interesting person who used the word "diversity" regularly. It's like talking about drywall. First rule of tolerance club - shut up about tolerance club. Because last I heard, that's the central notion of tolerance.

(Which, of course, I've already broken today by criticizing others. But I was criticizing people for lack of tolerance. So I guess that's tolerant by double negative, no? [Or do I mean, 'Yes?']).

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 409835)

Dork friends of mine were recently chatting about the total and compete fuck up in casting Halle Berry as Storm for the X-men movies. And in the course of the conversation, we realized that there is no other actress that could meet the criteria that we assume went into the casting: A black, A-list actress at the peak of her game. No one else cast in the first movie had individual box office draw. At that point, no one knew who Hugh Jackman was. Anna Paquin, Famke Janssen and James Marsten weren't all that big. The LOTR movies weren't out until the following year, and there are only so many Next Generation geeks. Angela Basset would have been a perfect Storm, but she was too old when the movie came out. Halle Berry wasn't a great match, but she was all that was out there.

Then we realized that right now, with the possible exception of Halle Berry, there aren't any A-List black actresses at all. All of the black women cast in big roles in movies these days are moonlighting pop stars, like Beyonce, Jennifer Hudson and Mariah Carrey. It's extremely likely that the Academy Award for best actress will go to a black woman, but does anyone realistically think that Gabby Sidibe is ever going to be able to parlay that into an A-List career?

Honestly, can anyone think of an A-List black actress? We ran through TV and movies and drew a lot of blanks.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 409842)

My ethnic background can best be described as pan-Northern European, so I don't really engage in a lot of celebrating of my cultural, but I would never suggest it is wrong for others to do so.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 409841)

That's what the question has become -- how can you get out of this without endangering yourself.

It started with, IIRC, "should I take him back." The "and btw I'm fucking him" part came out later. Which led to the chorus of "figure it out, girl."

Once ABBA's focus is on extracting herself from this, and figuring out how to do it safely for her and her daughter, she'll stop acting like a victim. Which will be good. And which, I would think from what little I know about her, she has the ability to do.

I recognize how hard this all is for her, to the extent that I can recognize this as an outsider. But calling her the victim seems, in a way, to absolve her from any responsibility for bad choices -- those she may have made, and those she may continue to make.

Your own response to the 'hate-fuck' post wasn't to say "aw, you're really a victim here," but rather to say something like "you are batshit crazy."

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409844)

I think the closest you get is Rosario Dawson (I don't even know if she is black), Gabrielle Union (who would have made a decent Storm), Thandie Newton, Sanaa Lathan, Jada or Kerry Washington. I don't think any of them make it to A-List status (meaning: Big Movie Headliner).

TM

Originally Posted by catrin_darcy (Post 409808)

To Sebby:
See also T. Morrison, The Bluest Eye.

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint (Post 409847)

My vote is for Thandi Newton. Whatever we're voting on, my vote is for her. And yeah, I guess she has "white" features. I don't feel bad for thinking she's hot.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409849)

http://dmsr.files.wordpress.com/2008...e-newton-5.jpg

You are excused.

TM

Originally Posted by ABBAKiss (Post 409840)

What was it?

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409844)

I think the closest you get is Rosario Dawson (I don't even know if she is black), Gabrielle Union (who would have made a decent Storm), Thandie Newton, Sanaa Lathan, Jada or Kerry Washington. I don't think any of them make it to A-List status (meaning: Big Movie Headliner).

TM

Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen (Post 409850)

I can't even be mad about this fucking up my page margins.

Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen (Post 409832)

your wife is hot.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 409844)

I think the closest you get is Rosario Dawson (I don't even know if she is black), Gabrielle Union (who would have made a decent Storm), Thandie Newton, Sanaa Lathan, Jada or Kerry Washington. I don't think any of them make it to A-List status (meaning: Big Movie Headliner).

TM

Originally Posted by ironweed (Post 409854)

It kind of bothers me how much I like the Awl. I consider myself a lone wolf, like Sebby, but damn -- they know how I think.

Just one of the many worthwhile offerings on there today:

http://www.theawl.com/2009/12/racist...get-used-to-it