Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is why I don't go to suburban cocktail parties.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Republicans are going along with the show because a significant number of their voters don’t want to live in a nation where they compromise with Democrats.

McConnell, not Trump, proved that you could beat Democrats by simply ignoring the norms (Garland).

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

$800/hr, unless you can easily do a search to find out what someone else would charge. If you can, charge 20% more than them.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

That dude better be living as a woman in The Outback somewhere.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You’re wrong. Most conservatives just don’t want to have to engage with or pay the government. (Except when they’re contracting with Uncle Sam.)

I find this quite persuasive on why the nation is so fractured: http://www.businessinsider.com/2008-...olitics-2018-2

I’ll go to my grave saying this: Sometimes it’s not, but most times - the overwhelming majority of times – it’s all about the money.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

And get a minimum and a retainer.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The "boogeyman" needs of the right are pathological, and the line goes back long before your list: Ted Kennedy played the role for a whole generation, and let's not forget the group boogeymen (currently "immigrants" but historically the gays, the blacks, the commies, etc...).

Ideologies motivated by boogeymen had had some currency on the left, but I can't think of any time when it motivated the dominant wing of the party on the left. Sometimes Democrats have even adopted the right's boogeymen as a way of grabbing the center (as with the Commies during JFK's time).

I think this comes, fundamentally, from a lack of ideas and a desire to play to the easily swayed.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There are plenty of people who don't want to have to engage with or pay the government, and many of them are conservatives, but that is not what makes them conservatives, even if they sometimes say things like that. Conservatives are no more upset by paying their taxes than lefties are.

That has little or nothing to do with the nation's fractures, which were around well before 2008.

Yes, I'm sure racial and gender bias (to pick two problems) would just go away if you paid people to stop thinking that way.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Conservative don't want to government to give "their" money to groups they don't like. Black people as a first principle, but also gays, native people, immigrants and union members.

They have no objection to government that gives them the stuff they want.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You keep saying this. And I'm not criticizing. I just don't understand. As far as I can tell, the lack of ideas isn't the problem. When your ideology is "Keep everything the way it is unless we're enriching those of us who are already rich," you're not looking for ideas to improve things. You're looking for ways to keep money and the racial hierarchy in place. And those two things do not require new ideas. They require forceful application of all the same ones that have been working for centuries. Cut taxes, gut voting protections for minorities, enact voter suppression, empower police forces, jail minorities, empower corporations. Those principles are constant and holy. Everything else is lip service, which is why the right has a "lack of ideas." Hell, they don't need them to get elected. Just stick to the script.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The first part is not true as stated. There are the bigoted conservative whos, yes, only want the $$$ to go to them, or people like them. But these are a minority number of conservatives. The majority of conservatives are tax voters who don't give a damn about where money goes, as long as they are minimizing how much they contribute.

There's actually a big split in conservatives on this issue. Many of those tax voters see the Trumpkins as freeloaders. They don't want to give $$$ to the knuckledragging opioid users in coal country any more than they want to give it to immigrants. They abide these hillbillies because they're useful idiots, the same way they tolerated the Religious Right in Reagan's day.

Your second point, however, is ironclad fact. The double standard all of these "Conservatives" adhere to is, they'll happily maximize their own share of govt transfers. They dodge criticism of that by stating, "I paid into Social Security!" Okay. That's a fair enough argument. It's when they say, "I paid FICA!" that they start to sound full of shit. Because there ain't no way these people pay into Medicare half of what they get out of it. Particularly these selfish, self-absorbed baby boomers.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes, it is. Jesus. It's 2018 and "conservatives" just recently elected Trump. The unifying principle of the American right is racism. It is literally the only thing left from what the GOP claimed as its principles a mere year and a half ago.

Yes, there are actual conservatives in the world. It just turns out they're electorally irrelevant.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

These people are either racist and actively vote racist or they are okay with racism (and installing racist policy) and vote a racist into office because they want what they want. Effectively, there is no difference. The political outcome and the impact is the exact same.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Look, I'm not going to shit all over your narrative, but if you think the unifying vision is racism, rather than greed and selfishness, I don't know how to even talk to you.

The GOP is loaded with bigots. No doubt in the least. And a significant part of the party's appeal is nativism and racism.

But the unifying message that keeps the non-racists and non-nativists voting GOP is taxes.

My pet suspicion, and this might accrue from being upper middle class, which exposes one to tons of GOP voters, is that a lot of the non-bigot GOP voters are scared. They're not rich, they're living high cost lifestyles, and their margins are being squeezed. They're in the keeping up with the Joneses game, and view candidates as pocketbook impacts, and not much more. They make up a lot of justifications for voting for Trump, but in the end, it's dollars.

Recall, Trump had a lot of surprisingly prosperous but nor rich voters.

I think you underestimate greed. That's the only common thread that ties the hedge fund mogul, orthopedic surgeon, middle manager, and coal miner together. Racism only ties certain of them together.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Heck, the very notion of "conservatism" aka "things should remain as they were in the past" is inherently racist, because the past was inherently racist.

"Oh, but we don't mean that part" is and was bullshit if you're not in favor of doing anything at all to address inequity. You're for keeping it the same. You're for racism, no matter what stories you tell yourself.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The unifying theme is racism, which people view as being in their self interest.

You're confusing what drives donations and what drives votes. And you're confusing yourself for a typical GOP voter (which is strange as you insist you aren't).

You know it doesn't have to, right? I keep telling you to get out of the suburbs.

Fuck those people.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It goes to what problem you want government to solve. On the left, people see a bunch of problems in the world that government can do something about. On the right, people fundamentally want things to stay the way they have been and are motivating most by trying to stop the people who want to change things -- they are reactionary. Conservative politicians are allowed to have a single issue on which they can see a need to use government as a force to fix things, usually because they have been personally touched by it -- a child who is gay or handicapped, for example. Those single issues are an updated version of noblesse oblige, and are OK because the efforts may help a few people but don't threaten the existing hierarchies.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Racism is a result more than a unifying factor. They vote self-interest.

I voted for John Kerry and Bill Clinton. I vote all over the place.

I kinda like my family. I'm with you in hating the suburban mentality, but there are trade-offs. What's a guy to do?

(And the city life was getting a bit obscene for me way back when. I mean, I kind of had to get away from certain things.)

Fuck 'em, hate 'em... I'm just telling you how they vote.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yup. Wasn't Edmund Burke, apologist for the French Aristocracy of Louis XVI's reign, the father of modern conservatism?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The issue here is how do you judge "conservatives" - based on what they say, especially in polite company, or on what they do?

If you're looking outside the lunatic rump of the Freedom Caucus, finding a Republican who hasn't been voting for massive expenditures over the last twenty years is about as likely as getting an olive in your drink when you order your whiskey neat.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you're looking for the father of conservatism in the US, I'd judge from the statuary that the most likely candidates are Nathan Bedford Forrest and Robert E. Lee.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Actually, I think conservatives want change, but change that encompasses a return to their version of a past that never existed. And for idea, I mean economic and policy ideas to accomplish things, not a vague yearning for a whiter world and a desire to beat anything different into submission.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Conservatives are too exercised by fear to create change other than a return to yesterdays of yore.

The mindset is one of desire to control one's surroundings, to live on a chessboard where one knows all the rules, and the rules never change. Conservatives are a lot like older, established corporations. They hate risk and seek to neutralize anything that might effect a change with which they have to grapple.

They do not see upsides in change. It's a negative mindset.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else. But it's not because I'm conservative. It's because I'm selfish and I see limited multiplier effects from taxes. I would drop this position if we had a universal income, because I see a lot of upside to giving people money to spend in the economy. Try arguing for universal income to an ardent conservative. Holy fuck. You'll be lucky not to have a wine glass broken over your head. (And then, in the next breath, they'll cite Milton Friedman, who of course advocated for universal income.)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is an interesting distinction. And I'm going to respond even though it's never a good idea, because I remember you posting about how screwed our approach to imprisoning people is.

If every single institution is set up to favor one group of people over all others, isn't voting "self-interest" inherently racist through willful blindness?

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is nonsense on stilts, and about as pointless as observing that the majority of lefties are red-blooded Americans who fear God and love their country. I understand that people out there say this sort of thing, and why they say it, but it's hard to think that you are so naive as to believe it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Adam Serwer:

The Atlantic

GOP voters say what they say about taxes as an integral part of the "vehement denial that their policies would discriminate" referred to by Serwer. And Democrats don't like taxes any more than Republicans do.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't agree with that characterization. I don't think all systems are set up to favor one group over all others. It's more complicated than that.

But I do agree - voting for something you know will have a racist result is, well, a racist vote. I'd prefer racist-accomplice, but what's the difference, really?

Of all the reasons I could not vote for Trump, his "law n' order" dog whistle was the biggest. I didn't think Hillary'd do shit to help with justice reform either, however, so that issue didn't compel me to change my decision to go with "Option C."

But yes, I think any open-minded voter who votes R has to wrestle with the fact that he's supporting a justice system that's running a War on Blacks (and some other minorities, and poor people). I think most people reconcile it with, "The Democrats won't do much different in re justice reform." And in most regards, historically, that's been true.

Nobody gives a fuck about justice reform because nobody gives a fuck about victims of the justice system. They've nothing to donate, and no voice.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think that fellow is full of shit.

First, you can't use "Trump voters" to describe the whole group. What he actually means is, "Right Wingers." "Trump Voters" is a much bigger category.

Almost every Trump Voter to whom I've spoken has stated:

1. Embarrassment he was the candidate;
2. Disgust at the choice;
3. Reluctance to admit they did it; and,
4. The grudging explanation, "Well, you know... It's a hedge against higher taxes. Democrats always raise taxes. Why take a chance? And Trump will be decent for business. Or at least better than Obama."

Now, of course, my social scene is white collar, educated, and generally not-missing-any-meals. I'm sure the dirt farmer Trump vote thinks differently. But that generalization in that guy's article? That's shit.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Law and order is a great place to starting thinking about what's in GOP voters' self interest. Is it?

It's sure is expensive to lock up as many people we do, mostly because of drugs. It doesn't help reduce drug dependency. Arguably it puts their white kids in danger of getting swept up in it (although maybe they think whiteness will work for them).

So where's the self interest? Do they think they benefit from prison (i.e., pretty much slave) labor? Do they think they get an advantage in the labor markets from reduced competition?

They probably do tell themselves that it enhances their safety, but isn't it pretty easy to see that as self delusion? White GOP voters are pretty darn safe already.

Again, I think you're conflating what you think with what most people think. And, honestly, your thinking that Dems, who are ever more dependent on black voters, care but won't do anything doesn't make much sense.

If we're talking regulating banks, then fine, Dems are beholden to the same interests as the GOP. But what's the interest that Dems can't cross on maintaining mass incarceration?

History is not a good guide here.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Again, let's practice with our bullshit detector. Is "Democrats always raise taxes" a true statement? It is not. So why do we think this person is being honest (with himself or with you)?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Of course. Name an institution.

Home ownership: Government-lead institutional racist approach to keeping blacks from owning homes, restricting them to certain areas, driving down their home prices and supporting lenders who adopted those policies.

Policing and justice system and penal system: Too obvious to state. War on drugs, removal of right to vote, unfair sentencing, police not policed, DAs not interested in justice,

Segregation: First De jure, now de facto

Education: Born out of segregation, but designing a funding system for public education based on immediate and cleverly-drawn districts, makes sure white retain an advantage indefinitely. I won't preach about how inflated GPAs and advanced courses that are offered to the privileged serve a similar function when it comes to college admissions.

Voting: The whole goal of Republicans, conservatives, anyone on the right is to restrict voting and outright suppress it in dozens and dozens of ways

Employment: Uh, 'nuff said.

Any others? I'd be happy to discuss.

She surely wouldn't go in the exact opposite direction of where we were headed with Obama. Sessions has done incredible damage (stepping away from already established settlement agreements with police departments, restarting the war on drugs, fully embracing civil forfeiture, returning to junk-science when it comes to prosecutions (and abandoning science generally when it comes to criminal prosecutions), and jumping back in with both feet to supporting private prisons, among other things). Let's not even talk about the bullshit Trump talks and tweets about the state of crime and what's happening in inner cities.

Willful blindness. See above.

When you say, "nobody cares," who the hell are you talking about? White people? Right wing white people? Republicans? The rich? Because there are millions of people who care about this. Think about how many people are jailed (a lot on non-violent drug charges) and then think about how many family members and friends they have. Think about the number of people who fear the justice system screwing them over on a bullshit arrest. What are you talking about?

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes, but he wasn't an apologist for the ancient regime:

link

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Among the Trump voters I know best, mostly family, Serwer is exactly right. They'll quickly come out of the closet with the anti-Muslim sentiment, because they view it as acceptable, but they share the broader racism much more guardedly and feel somewhat guilty about it some of the time.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Law Partnerships....


(Oh shit now what have I done)

Re: Don't Bring Me Down
 

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What the fuck is he supposed to say? "While many people give a fuck about justice reform, and there are indeed a variety of organizations whose sole mission is justice reform, and a majority of Americans would likely identify inequities in the justice system as a major problem, there is one political party that is actively hostile to such reform, and another that ends up prioritizing it lower than it should because of lack of political money and a potential increase in political liability in doing otherwise." I mean, tl;dr, amirite? Totes. So instead, you get "nobody gives a fuck about justice reform," which is a much tidier little sound bite, and which is delivered simultaneously with Sebastian's castigation about how you are always making broad unsubstantiated generalizations.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

(Stated the obvious?)

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I see your point.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Maybe you and he are talking about different voters. I don't see how you can decide that he is actually talking about a subset of "right wingers" when he specifically says that he talked to "dozens of Trump supporters". Maybe you think he's just lying about that? Um, no.

Or maybe you are he both think you're talking about the same people but actually are talking about different people. Possible. He reports on talking to people in different states and (from what I can tell) different backgrounds. You seem to have focused on white-collar types in the suburbs of Philadelphia. So maybe it's right that you don't have a broad enough perspective.

Or maybe you're both basically talking about the same people and he found a way to get them to discuss what they're thinking in a way you haven't. It's always socially acceptable to say that you're for lower taxes. Serwer writes:

Sounds like you and he are describing the same people, really. You are just more inclined to accept their explanation at face value.

Also from Serwer's article:

In other words, voters' racial attitudes better explain -- statistically -- their support for Trump than their economic circumstances.

eta: How on Earth can you go from acknowledging Burke as the source of modern conservatism to pretending that conservatism as we now see it is about a desire to pay lower taxes? It's like you can explain how a transmission works, but then insist that the wiper control makes the car go.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

He meant Burke the Brand Name not Burke the Actual Thinker.