I like Orwell too...
 

But we're living in Huxley's world. You think you think what you think by choice, but is that really true? How much of it is conditioning? How much of it is the opinions of authority figures around you drummed into your head as a child? How much of it is peer pressure? How much of it is a desire to telecast certain sensibilities? Certain education, status? How much of it is the media you choose to consume?

I listen to you, then I listen to a Trumpkin, and the only real difference I see is you've read more books.

I can't figure out which one of the two of you has more free will in regard to his views and thoughts. It's possible neither of you has much at all.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

I don't understand what you are trying to ask. He referred to a "fake dossier," so I dropped that link to the Steele dossier. I'm sorry you missed the context when you posted in response.

Since you insist on using the words "bigot" and "racist" differently than those people do, you're making a point about semantics, not facts. Also, you've repeatedly insisting that whether someone is either depends on understanding their state of mind, also not a simple question of fact. If someone says that 'Trumpkins are racist,' they are making a point about racism that you don't want to hear. They are interpreting the same facts available to you, but differently.

As I said, there are mainstream news sources, and conservative news sources. I think the game you are playing is to call the mainstream sources "left-leaning," yes?

When you say that "the left's hair is on fire ... because ... Fox [is] the most watched of all cable news networks," you show that you have a lousy sense of what people to the left of you think. I don't know of anyone who gives a shit about whether Fox is watched, as such. People do give a shit about the propaganda that Fox pumps out, the fact that it is divorced from the facts that the rest of us share, and the fact that people who watch Fox regularly grow less well informed. Of course, there is no analogue to this on the left.

Re: I like Orwell too...
 

It's true -- as bilmore is my witness, everything I do is compelled by an irrational urge to impress Flower. Your insight is uncanny.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This article is about tech nerds and it's four years old, but so much of what it says they get wrong about politics is also true of Sebby. Sebby, obviously you belong in Silicon Valley.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You are sadly misinformed. First jocks are still the top, tech nerds are important to tech nerds (sorry). Second I’ve voted 10 times for president 5 D 5 R. But I don’t exist according to this very intelligent analysis.

You know I love you? Stop spending so much time reading this sort nonsense. Drink. Run. Fuck. Masturbate. Create a plf @ 25 sock and goof on the current plf- something. But just stop wasting your time like this?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It doesn't say you don't exist. It just says you're uncommon. That's why we cherish you, Hank. Happy Thanksgiving!

eta: Also, nerds who are also jocks > nerds. That's why Bezos bulked up when he got rich. https://image.businessinsider.com/59...jpeg&auto=webp
But in the new economy, nerds > jocks. If that's not true in Detroit, well, come to Silicon Valley sometime to check it out. I can't promise a meal by an open sewer line, though.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

He's done a lot of curls, no doubt. But I've stood next to him at a dinner. One of Hank's physical stature could literally dwarf bowl the guy.

(I should have talked to him. But what would I say? "Prime is really great... And your head is sooo shiny! Do you use product?")

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You've got to break it down a little bit. First, there are jock nerds these days. That's top of pecking order.

Then there's jocks. But that's got a laddering as well:

1. Lax bros;
2. Soccer/Basketball/Hockey;
3. Solo sport kids (skiing/tennis);
4. Football;
5. Baseball

The traditional football jock is fading away as parents of athletes won't let their kids play it anymore. Those kids get funneled into lacrosse and hockey now.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Based on my observation of about 30 nieces and nephews between the ages of 18 and 30, the age group that determines what is hip, it is my conclusion that tech nerds are falling out of fashion. They were the cool kids of the pre-Trump 21st century.

The new cool kid is the policy wonk. Too bad we're all too old to be cool kids.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

At a high school reunion maybe fifteen years ago, I was told that our group was the cool kids. We just didn't care, and that was what made us cool.

This was amusing, but, of course, we didn't care.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Lacrosse AND hockey?

Translation: Sebby is main line.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

You do realize that we know you just pull this shit out of your overstretched asshole, right? It is hilarious that you say this ridiculous, stupid shit with such authority.

TM

Re: I like Orwell too...
 

This whole post is pure fucking comedy.

"You think you think what you think by choice..."

"[But besides your lifelong programming, your opinions are based on what you want to express to others to show your education and status.]"

"[You're just like these uneducated assholes, except you're educated.]"

You are catastrophically stupid.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude...

TM

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Saying ridiculous, stupid shit with authority is one of the hallmarks of Trumpism. An overwhelming majority of Trump supporters do it.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

He's permanently banned in my village at Burning Man. In 2002, 2003ish, he rolled into our communal area and tried to throw his bike into our fire pit. He pulled the "do you know who I am" bullshit. No one cared as they kicked him out.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I was a space cadet. Didn't know enough to care. I passed these genes on, and they'll serve the child well.

I had my shit together. Got good grades and all, went to the right parties, but I was always daydreaming, disconnected.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I his defense, the aroma of burning tires is delightful.

He's tiny. You should have bowled the little cretin.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Excellent.

When I was in college, I once kicked the Prince of Monaco out of my room for smoking a cigarette, but kicking Bezos out of your village for being an ass is even better.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

And yet some think we're all Beckies, Staceys, Chads, etc.: https://www.vox.com/2018/4/28/172902...ad-stacy-becky

The Incel world is the craziest of internet rabbit holes. The lingo is unintentional comedy of the darkest variety imaginable.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

You realize that when you say the majority of Trumpkins are bigots you're talking out of your equally stretched ass. There's no way you can prove that. None.

You can say all sorts of shit here and people won't challenge it, but if you said it in a setting where people actually scrutinized what you're saying, a significant number of them would laugh at you.

A number of different people would of course do the same to me, for different reasons, of course.

Validation by fellow travelers doesn't mean you're right. It means you've picked your audience well. Were I to venture into a medium populated with people who favored the media criticisms of, say, Taibbi, Greenwald, or Chris Hedges, or people who favored third party candidates, or even people who simply favor Bernie, I'd be validated and you'd be mocked.

You're focused on the election, and Trump. I'm not. I'm more interested in the forces that caused Trump. Call me crazy, but I think obsessing about the symptoms while ignoring the underlying disease is just... dumb.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Dude, really, stop digging.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

I'm blocked for being in private mode. But as a simple matter of math, uh... 41 percent of anything is not a majority. And what percentage of overall Trump voters were millennials?

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Dude, I don't believe anyone here said that all Trump voters are bigots. I certainly didn't. That is something you made up to try to prove that the left and right both live in their own factual reality. The irony that your centrist both-sidesism is itself based on inventing your own factual reality may be lost on you, but it is not lost on some of us. Or, as a Greedy said, keep digging.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Did I say "all"? Reread. I said "a majority."

More Sebby bullshit
 

My asshole is tight like a tied-off balloon. But come up with your own metaphors.

And to address your point, I would cite the studies that say racism and sexism (and not economic anxiety) actually drove voters to Trump. You know, the ones you try so hard to ignore.

First of all, I am absolutely consistent when I talk about politics no matter where I am and who I'm with. So retire your stupid fucking incessant "echo chamber" bullshit already.

My Republican friends (some of whom are lunatics) either plug their ears when it comes to the racist shit or they resort to whataboutism. Hell, a guy I grew up with told me the other day that black people should like Trump because immigrants tend to take resources that would otherwise go to poor blacks. We argued about why he was wrong, of course. But one thing is for sure: None of them deny the racism anymore. Even they accept that Trump and Miller and their racist fucking policies are indeed racist. They either overlook it because their 401k is up or they embrace it as one the main features of his Presidency.

Also, I doubt anyone you know would laugh at me, unless it was behind my back, because I bet the Republicans you know are full of bravery on the internet only. Like you.

What is amazing about you is that you manage to build up a reality in your head and there is nothing that can penetrate that vibranium-reinforced empty vacuum. You think I only talk about politics with people who agree with me, or that I only do it here, or that the media is a leftist monolith, or everyone in cities share the same opinions, or whatever. You absolutely ignore anything anyone says that doesn't fit your stupid, limited, "what you think you think you think" bullshit narrative in favor of your own and then you argue that. That's why almost everything you post is fucking idiotic.

You are such a fucking numbskull.

If I say racism is the feature, not an outlier, and I point to policy and proof that those who set his policy are actually raging racists, that has nothing to do with the election. If we talk about the racism that drove the 35% of this country that loves racism to a racist, that's not discussing a fucking symptom. Jesus fucking Christ.

TM

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

fact check: False

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

You pathetic tool. You actually went back to an earlier discussion, yanked a quote from it that fit your misrepresentation, and then shoehorned it into this thread so you wouldn't lose a point.

Is your insecurity truly as limitless as it appears?

Here's the post to which you responded -- the immediate discussion at hand:

You realize that when you say the majority of Trumpkins are bigots you're talking out of your equally stretched ass. There's no way you can prove that. None.

You can say all sorts of shit here and people won't challenge it, but if you said it in a setting where people actually scrutinized what you're saying, a significant number of them would laugh at you.

A number of different people would of course do the same to me, for different reasons, of course.

Validation by fellow travelers doesn't mean you're right. It means you've picked your audience well. Were I to venture into a medium populated with people who favored the media criticisms of, say, Taibbi, Greenwald, or Chris Hedges, or people who favored third party candidates, or even people who simply favor Bernie, I'd be validated and you'd be mocked.

You're focused on the election, and Trump. I'm not. I'm more interested in the forces that caused Trump. Call me crazy, but I think obsessing about the symptoms while ignoring the underlying disease is just... dumb.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Translation: Stop paying attention to what I say.

Clown.

TM

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Are you for real? It's the same conversation, from last Tuesday. Why do you think we are talking about whether Trumpkins are bigots? It's because you just brought it up.

And what "point" do you think I'm "losing"? My point was that the right lives in its own epistemic bubble. I wasn't arguing about the relationship between Trump and bigotry. The way you attribute wild ideas to people to your left only proves my point.

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

I'm not ignoring them. I think about a 1/3 to 40% of his vote was bigoted in one way or another.

Right. Except Trump and Miller are not Trump's voters. The issue I was raising was the argument made after 2016 that a majority of his voters were racist. Now, of course that's walked back when challenged. If I say that sounds high, people like Ty will backpedal and say it's "some percentage." Not you. I think you really think it's a majority.

Seriously? People aren't allowed to laugh at you? This isn't 1880s honor culture. If I say something to someone and they think it's absurd, they'd had better laugh at me. If you have an opinion and you air it, people are allowed to mock it.

I have said a percentage of Trump voters are racist. I draw the line at people abusing that fact and stretching it to suggest that racism or bigotry explains the man's voters. Brexit and Trumpism are complex, and it infuriates me to hear people try to simplify them.

If that's all we discuss, and we don't address the economic issues that drove the other 65% to vote for him, we do ourselves a grave disservice. And that's what we've been doing.

Hell, just bringing up Taibbi's book here is met with anger. Why? Because he asserts that the media has been oversimplifying these issues? What's wrong with doing that? Let me guess... Perhaps because if we do that, things turn from an easy narrative of bigot candidates and their bigoted voters to one about complex economic issues where nobody can so easily claim the moral high ground?

The Right and the Left have narratives. A lot of the Left's narratives find there way into discussions here. Taibbi does a great job of exploring how these narratives are created. It hurts no one, and actually improves political debate, to engage that discussion.

Or you can just keep having the same conversations over and over and wonder why on earth your "side" keeps losing elections.

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

You go back and use a CTRL + F to find that bon mot?

Gold star for you!

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

Hey, everyone, what do you think? Will any of Duncan Hunter's girlfriends stick with him while he's in prison? Or will he have to go back to his wife?

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

I firmly believe that almost all of his supporters are racist or okay with racism because it doesn't affect them. But the distinction is absolutely meaningless to me because Trump's policies are actually fucking racist. He fans racism. He thrives on it. He quotes and retweets racists with the largest megaphone in the world.

This is what I'm talking about. You can only have a conversation on your weird ass terms. You accuse everyone of something (in this case that the majority of his voters are racist) and then that's it. It's all related. If you can't handle a conversation that takes that into account, you are a clown who can only focus on what's in your clown head.

That isn't what happened. Ty pushed back on your assertion and how you tried to pigeonhole him and the conversation. You can only discuss this topic (and all topics) on your own screwy terms.

If his policies are racist and he says racist things and he hires racist people and fans the flames of racist hate to his screaming, lunatic followers, what fucking difference does it make if you have true racist feelings in your heart or you love a man who does all the racist things I've listed?

You can't be serious. If I say something mock-worthy, everyone should feel free to mock away. If I say that Trump fans the flames of racial hatred to the detriment of this country and people like me and someone laughs in my face, they've got a problem. Since that statement is a fact, the act of laughing in my face would be a challenge. And I don't think the people you know at your cocktail parties have the balls for that. Stop being obtuse.

What is infuriating is your inability to listen. If we're arguing about the number of racists supporting Trump, why do you think that means I've rejected all other factors when it comes to why he won? If every single Trump voter is racist, there are still many reasons why he won. Among those are the racist gerrymandering and vote suppression. We've also all discussed third-party voting (hi Hank!) in this ridiculous electoral college system. We've spent plenty of time talking about economic factors. But your dismissal of the studies that state that racism and sexism drove him to win because you think the line should be drawn at 40% racist is just fucking stupid. No one here thinks any of this shit is the sole reason for his win.

Wrong. We've spent 3 years talking about what makes Trump voters tick. We've discussed automation, foreign trade, the drawn out death of fossil fuels, demographic shifts, immigration, the economy generally, taxation, etc. But whenever anyone brings up the question of whether race played a significant role (and points to a study that says it most definitely has), you throw this same little shit fit.

I didn't really respond to your Taibbi posts because I think that guy has gone off the deep end. So I'm less likely to care about his opinion. Same with Dershowitz or Lindsay Graham. It's not just because I disagree with their points that I dismiss them. It's because there is something off with them.

Please give me a few minutes to re-roll my eyes all the way back to the front of my head, because this sentence is completely fucking ridiculous.

Here's the thing: I probably won't read Taibbi's book. He seems to have turned into a kook. But if you are telling me that the Left (read: all of the media not named Fox News and Breibart) has a narrative, you're stupid. If that's Taibbi's point, his point is stupid. If you want to point at Fox and Breitbart, two sources that fucking coordinate with the Trump Administration and tell me they have a narrative, okay. That makes sense.

If you're talking about the Left's narrative generally (Trump does awful shit) like this is somehow coordinated derangement (and you've said this) and not just based on the awful shit he is clearly doing, I'm not interested.

Oh Sebby! Thank god for you! Bringing your much-needed perspective and insight to this conversation and not just saying stupid shit constantly to be contrary or because you think everyone is tribal and can't have an independent thought unless it's the opposite of what they actually think! Thank you so much for your service.

TM

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

Real live quote from Trumpster relative I did not get together with this Thanksgiving: "You can't call me a racist just because I believe white people are superior."

Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.
 

There's a little tab at the top of the screen that lets you go back a page. I remembered that we were talking about bigoted Trump voters because you brought them up.

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

It's one thing to have your own narrative, and another thing to believe in your own facts. There are plenty of narratives out there. You can believe that the US has been an imperialist genocidal project from the arrival of the first Vikings off Newfoundland, or you can believe that the US has been the global avatar for democracy, or you can believe that the US reflects the triumph of free-market capitalism, or whatever other narrative you want, but those are all narratives that can be based on actual facts, and you can dispute them with other actual facts.

What is different about the right is its epistemic bubble. What I said in the post that Sebby responded to with made-up nonsense about Trumpkin bigots was: "But it seems like a bigger problem that conservatives have constructed an alternate reality which is impervious to facts that the rest of us get. You engage in a little both-sideism here, as you are wired to do, but I don't know of a single person who thinks that everything in the Steele dossier is right, but there are plenty of people like Slave who reject it as fake." It still seems like a bigger problem than media laziness, or whatever else Taibbi is on about.

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

Brilliant.

TM

Re: More Sebby bullshit
 

Or you vote for a man despite knowing he is pushing racism, while telling yourself you aren't racist? I have voted for a lot of R's who people said were doing racist things. I disagreed and pulled the lever. I just really don't see how one can say Trump is not pushing racist agendas to gather votes (I actually think he is likely less racist than his voters- I think he believes everyone not his blood relative is beneath him and inferior and deserving of scorn and any shit he wants to hit us with). I keep focusing on 3rd party voters because I believe those are minds that can change. I do not see Trump voters changing their minds. Not trying to be a pessimist, but no press has really pushed the 3rd party voters and man those fucks need to be hit up.