What is the problem?
 

The problems is the unions get involved with politics. Those sins laid at the civil service door are rules passed by a legilslature under the influence of unions.

In California teachers cannot be fired because of laws passed by the legislature paid for by the unions.

In politics unions are dangerous because they don't care about creating jobs, or reducing prices, or increasing efficiency, all they care about is protecting the jobs they govern.

In a world where only the economies that adapt to the changing markets thrive, all the unions do is try and prevent the economy from adapting.

Almost any law or policy unions support politically make the economy less responsive and adaptible, hurting everyone by increasing prices and preventing job creation.

Vote no on Proposition 73
 

No hate. I'm just acknowledging that I'm never going to change your mind about anything and you're never going to stop pissing me off when it comes to politics.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time, and you annoy the pig.

What is the problem?
 

What you fail to grasp is that someone is going to make sneakers paying 2$ a day in Indonesia no matter what the US government does. Either it will be an american company or another company. If you prevent the American company from doing it they will not be able to sell their shoes as cheaply around the world as the company that does and the american company goes out of business. So all the other jobs that the American shoe company provides in america (managers, shoe designers, consultants, lawyers etc) will all be lost.

There is no way to stop outsourcing. The only thing you can do is drive american companys out of business by preventing them from taking advantage of cheap labour .

We live in a world market. Either we compete in it or we go out of business. The choice is that simple.

What is the problem?
 

Re: your first paragraph, I think you may have a point as to recent developments with unions, but at the outset, I think unions were a natural outgrowth of industrialization/mass production. With large employers, especially those who dominate the industry in a particular area, workers have very little bargaining power (even more so a bazillion years ago when communications and transportation were so much more primitive) and factory owners really were exploiting them and getting ridiculously rich. I think the choice at that point was between unions and socialism, and unions seem more market-y than socialism. It's people banding together to bargain. I don't think that bringing in armed guards to force people back to work has a role in a free market. I don't think that "company towns" where the mill or mine or factory owner controls the price of food and housing -- keeping them artificially high -- so that workers have no way to save etc. to leave and get a better life is part of a free market.

Re: your second paragraph, I wasn't saying "we can't have winners without losers." I was saying, we can't develop a modern, industrialized society if everyone is an entrepreneur and does the bootstrap thing. Small businesses may drive growth, but hugenormousgantic businesses (not as much industrial anymore) are the backbone of the economy. And, for some people, becoming what you see as a drone is a big step up and is challenging.

Go suck on that silver spoon you've had since birth. Your forebears would be ashamed of you.

I'm not sure that I understand this, or perhaps there is a typo. Employers don't pay union dues. Employees do. An employer may have dues checkoff and send the payment to the union every month, but it still comes out of the employee's pocket, whether the employee is in the union or is a fair share fee payer.

I'm not arguing whether union membership it is good or bad, I am simply responding to your statement that in some closed shops, everyone is required to join the union. That is incorrect. There are also religious exemptions that do relieve an employee from paying anything to the union. Some religious sects (normally a Christian Sect) interpret the bible to mean that members of that church CANNOT be a member of a union and CANNOT pay any money to even support the union. If the individual can show that he or she has this religious conviction, then the fair share fee amount will be donated to a charity that has been mutually agreed upon by the employee and the union.

aV

What is the problem?
 

All large organizations get involved with politics, you simplistic twit. Almost any law or policy industry supports politically makes the economy less responsive and adaptable, or hurts the sustainability of human life, or drains resources from the majority of people. Employers/corporations/industries don't care about creating jobs or reducing prices (other than reducing the prices of things they buy), they care about making money and to hell with anything else. They don't want any change that will hurt them economically, either.

What is the problem?
 

The bar system in this country is ridiculous and should be an illegal monopolistic practice.

I have no problem with unions fighting for higher wages. I have no problem with unions lobbying for a higher minimum wage. I have no problme with unions lobbying for worker safety laws. It is just when the try and distort the market to protect their jobs, that is when they screw everyone and don't really help themselves.

What is the problem?
 

I don't think it's feasible to make a lot of stuff domestically now. But your much-admired corporations are working at least as hard as the unions to keep their companies alive, through subsidies and trade restrictions and all that other crap.

You can have the shoe designers and consultants and upper management stay here in the US, even if production is overseas.

I think you need to take some time off from here. Normally your logic and analysis aren't totally fucked.

What is the problem?
 

Simplistic? Simplistic is the union saying - if we stop free trade we will save our jobs. Their jobs are lost. That is just a fact of life. All they do when trying to preven the loss is screw everyone else in the process.

I didn't say I didn't expect unions to get involved in politics, but when they do they almost are always on the wrong side of economic issues. They are always pushing for regulations that make american businesses less competitive.

That is why I consider Unions one of the, if not the biggest threat to the economic future of the United States. If the unions had their way we would turn into a third world nation.

What is the problem?
 

I had bacon for lunch. mmmmmmm. and sausages!

What is the problem?
 

I don't fail to grasp it. I even think that it can be a good thing, as the $2 a day wage may be more than the guy would be making had Nike not put the factory there.

My point had nothing to do with free trade, globalization, etc. I was simply pointing out that a labor market where there are no unions to "artificially interfere" with the supply and demand of labor is not a labor market where I would like to be a factory worker. And, AoN, not a place where a factory worker's son has a shot at becoming a lawyer.

What is the problem?
 

Bite your tongue! With a little initiative, anyone can realize the Indonesian dream!

OK now I am confused. Absent a religious objection, are there not some companys where for every worker at the company the union gets money. Either it comes from the worker, or from the employer. Is that not ture?

Or can any company in the United STate hire someone who can then choose not to be part of the union and does not cause by their presence more money to be paid to the union by the employer?

What is the problem?
 

On sunday I realized I was out of bacon. But don't get too stressed, I bought some last night.

It's deducted from wages. Where the actual incidence falls would of course depend on elasticity and so forth, but it is nominally paid by the employee, just as health care premiums, etc. are nominally paid by the employee.

I'm sure there are probably studies on who really pays the union dues.

When I worked at a grocery store, I had union dues withheld from my check after some waiting period. I didn't have a choice about it. But it reduced my pay and was visible to me.

ETA you are so totally not qualified even to be participating in this discussion. By revealing how you make utterly confident statements when you have no knowledge, you are undermining the effectiveness of anything you've ever said on this board. Kudos.