Smokin' Stork
 

I wouldn't see myself having a "brat" either. That being said, others' children should be seen and not heard, and I'm tired of doting parents constantly reminding me of how "their child" is clearly the greatest child since Mozart or Jesus.

But I find myself getting off point...

Actually, there was a pile-on and "shock and awe" for someone daring to suggest that having a drink was ok.

Isn't it apparent? But let me add the "daddy brigade" to this lest I be accused of being sexist.

I actually recall Multo and perhaps GWINK being the only people to do so.

Oh, right, actors and actresses shoved in our faces and who use their bully pulpit to express their views are NOT role models. OK, Charles Barkley.

But you WOULD purport to tell establishment owners and paying customers what they can and cannot do? I see.

And you thought there was racism on AI
 

And the folks who criticize Tiger for being aloof in his refusal to address race issues have shit for brains. Tiger's and Jordan's wise decision to simply eliminate race from the equation makes race a non-issue. Racist whites and race-card playing non-whites can only affect their negative goals if people address their firebrand comments.

I understand that the race issue can never really go away, but there has to be someone who says "It ain't relevant" at some point, otherwise the emphasis on racial differences, which is counterproductive, will persist.

Of course, I recognize that Tiger and MJ could only play this issue so coyly due to the luxury of their supremely elevated status. Most other folks are forced to deal with race. Nevertheless, TIger and MJ's lead is a refreshing start in the right direction.

S(I also appreciate Barkley's no-nonsense "Race persists because dumbasses insist on bringing it up" comments)D

There's No Need to Fear . . .
 

Caped Crusader Saves the Day in English Town

LONDON (Reuters) - A masked and caped do-gooder has been sweeping through an English town, performing good deeds and scattering terrified bad guys, a local newspaper reported.

The Kent and Sussex Courier said Friday it had received letters from "stunned residents" of the town of Tunbridge Wells, southeast of London, who saw the man in a brown mask and cape scare off hooligans and return a woman's dropped purse.

Full text: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...nm/crusader_dc

Kids
 

I don't have kids either. But I'm intelligent enough to realize that kids have short attention spans, and that parents can temper such situations by making sure they have on hand plenty of toys, crayons and a cookie in an attempt to keep the brats preoccupied.

not7yS

Kids
 

It's amazing to me how suddenly children aren't annoying after people have them and become used to shrill screaming. Taking turns taking the kid out of the dining area is an appreciated response of parents with children who behave inappropriately for a restaurant. I certainly don't expect you to "beat them senseless" but just because you have become inured to the noise doesn't mean everyone else is.

Again, if you are at a restaurant that is clearly "family friendly" other people shouldn't expect the kids to be seen and not heard. They assumed the risk. But if the behavior is really unreasonable, someone should take the kid outside.

Airports and airplanes (etc.) I figure I've assumed the risk. I hate it when there's a screaming baby on board, but if I wanted to insulate myself from screaming children I should charter a plane or something. Misbehaving kid with parent making no effort to correct it is a different story.

Women
 

"Again, you're always right and I'm always wrong."

This was the one-line email from SO. You women are sneaky. Especially when right/wrong wasn't the issue.

If I agree, then I'm an asshole.

If I disagree, then I strenously agree.

There's No Need to Fear . . .
 

Townshend got community-controlled sanctions, eh? :D

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

Actually, I think you should have controlled your kid. And I think the management should probably have asked you to do it when they first had a complaint from another patron; if one's complaining, others are probably thinking it. Though the guy was an idiot for refusing a quiet table (unless it was in a back room or something), I have sympathy for the view that patrons who aren't disturbing anybody shouldn't be the ones making concessions.

It's a general rule of good manners. Intrusive practices in the presence of others are OK only if everyone consents, but once you are intruding on someone who isn't a willing participant, the person preferring the non-intrusive option (quiet, no smoke, no running, etc.) always takes precedence. Unless, as someone said, the nature of the place itself meant he assumed the risk. Patons of very casual restaurants can reasonably expect to eat in peace, too. While they can surely expect to encounter parents still actively trying to teach their kids manners and control, it is reasonable to expect those parents to be actively trying to keep the kids under control or from disturbing others. The only restaurant in which someone assumes the risk of children actually running around freely or playing in the aisles or screaming is Chuck-E-Cheeze & the like.

So unless the awning advertised "kids run free!" or "kid friendly!" or something, he was, frankly, acting appropriately to ask the management and then you to prevent the disruption. But after the management refused to do anything he found acceptable, he really should have simply said "this is unacceptable" and just left refusing to pay. The management is obviously willing to lose customers over this, so that would have satisfied everyone.

Regarding the mixed signals thing, though - either the kid needs to get consistent signals that running around disturbing strangers is not OK, or the kid needs to GET mixed signals so he can start to learn about context. The same behavior isn't appropriate every place - what is bad about the kid being made aware of that? Just as it is not appropriate for the kid to run around in a restaurant, it is not appropriate for him to sit in Chuck-E-Cheeze quietly using a knife and fork on his pizza. Learn the phrase and love it: "There is a time and a place for that sort of thing, young man."

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

RP,

I didn't mean to imply that you agree - I only responded to your post because it was the most recent.

I hope other parents get the hint that when their kid comes over and starts playing with a toy in front of me or addresses me while I'm wearing sunglasses and reading the NYTimes on Sat morning in shorts, flip flops and a T-shirt, I'm obviously hurting from the previous evening and do not think you kid is cute. Perhaps later, when I'm feeling better, I could find your kid cute, but not early on Sat morn. Parents should recall that we kidless folks have the luxury of being able to stay out late and indulge and might be feeling a wee bit under the wind. They should assume that when we are clearly struggling to keep our food down and are wearing a hat pulled down over our eyes with our head down that we will not find bleating children amusing. So PLEASE, mom and dad, if your bundle of joy is jumping all over a table where a younger looking person is minding his/her business, don't hesitate to remove the kid ASAP. We may smile back at you to be polite or even pretend to be interested in your kid, but we're really just looking for private time alone to ponder what the hell we did last night.

S(And new parent friends - don't ask a 32 year old male to hold your newborn - I'm scared shitless of dropping the kid and don't want him spitting on me... If I wanted one, I'd have one - take the hint)D

Women
 

Oh, you are well and truly fucked. This line is always a show-stopper, because it twists a lawyer's brain into a pretzel. Of course I'm always right! Would I intentionally choose the wrong position? And if I were to discover I was wrong, I would immediately change my position and become right again, with no hard feelings! What the fuck to women want us to do, persist in holding a mistaken belief long enough for them to score points by showing us that it was wrong, and only then conform our beliefs to that which is right?

Criminy.

Good luck to you, Coltrane.

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

Just to give you some good feeling about it all - revenge is it's own best reward, after all - consider the plight of the normal first-time new parent who is still not used to the idea that three bottles of scotch on a Friday night might now be excessive, who has made it to bed at 2:30 am, and then has to stumble back out of bed with the massive overhang with the pounding head, dry mouth, and queasy rolling stomach at five to change a really smelly diaper on a kid whose last meal was strained carrots, peas, and mashed roast beef.

With that picture in mind, you can just look at the parents and laugh.

Kids
 

I think you've taken me out of context. I just think I have become more sympathetic to how difficult it can be to "make children behave." Children do not automatically come into this world knowing appropriate behavior, and parents cannot teach it overnight. I don't automatically blame parents anymore for being awful parents when their kids are misbehaving. And I don't automatically view every child as a brat until proven otherwise, as it seems many here do. Clearly, I don't bring my kids into Le Cirque, but there are occasions where we hit the Mexican Restaurant down the street, or bring them on planes, or even into fairly nice stores (with nothing breakable at toddler height of course.) Some people are increasingly intolerant of kids though -- and surprisingly, it is the 20 to 30 somethings as often as the old folks. In fact, many older folks love seeing little kids around.

I'm not sure whether you expect them to suddenly emerge from their homes at age 18, fully formed and ready to have tea with the queen. They have to learn behavior, and the only way to do so is to get out in the world with adults.

That being said, all good parents, ourselves included, should have a low tolearnce for children that repeatedly annoy others or interfere with other people's enjoyment of a meal, flight, etc.

Physician, heal thy_____
 

This guy was saying your kids shouldn't be there so he didn't have to watch HIS OWN behavior? So he's obviously an idiot, just as a parent implying that a quiet normal patron shouldn't be there so his kids can freely run wild is an idiot. (If it wasn't a titty-bar or a stockbroker hang-out or something. Those who go into expensive steakhouses take their chances.)

I guess it's sort of nice that he'd be concerned for corrupting the youth, in a weird way. I'd just go ahead and swear like a sailor.
I agree, tough beans.
I suspect we are, and I always love a good rant.

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

If I ever have a child I will be sure to send the little cutie over to your table. "Honey, go say hi to that nice couple, they look hungover and could probably use some cheering up." Then my hubby and I would laugh and laugh at our little revenge ... and then the laughter would fade as we wistfully looked forward to our next carefree bender -- 14-16 years hence.

Physician, heal thy_____
 

He was in the Kirby Pucket memorial restaurant, after all. Bilmore, was he seated anywhere near the restroom?

(Smacked with a) POLL
 

Sometimes I think we are the same person.

Physician, heal thy_____
 

Strangely enough, they now have attendants and cameras in there, so he would have been shut down anyway. It's now the safest potty in the world.

Kids
 

I have a child but I generally do not like children - in fact, when children at my son's daycare try to speak with me when I drop him off I normally tell them point blank that I am not interested and that I do not like children. Call me an ogre, but I can barely stand the conversations of adults that I am paid to be around so I am certainly not going to waste time in the morning listening to someone else's kid tell me about his stupid bookbag - I will listen to Little Fan's stories but not those of someone else's brat. But I digress. Due to my working mom guilt, we don't go anywhere without the Little Fan and have never had a babysitter. This means, of course, that we don't go out as much (not including hockey and baseball, which we attend religiously with the Little Fan) but when we do, and if it is a nice place, we are VERY aware of the Little Fan and what he is doing. Little Fan is warned before entering that missteps will be dealt with both at the time they occur and at home with the loss of privileges. If he does act up, we do take him out of the dining area as you suggest -- he is escorted to the bathroom where a minor application of hand on ass takes care of the problem, normally for the rest of the evening. If his bad behavior has directly involved another patron, he apologizes to that individual -- I know people don't want to be rude, but that means they often say "oh, honey, that's okay" and then I have to nicely state that we appreciate the kindness but we have explained to our person-in-training that his behavior is not okay and thank you for accepting his and our apology.

I find that kids will do things in public that they would never do at home -- this is probably because they see that parents are generally scared shitless about doing anything remotely disciplinary because the same people who shoot you dirty looks about your child's behavior will shoot those same looks if try to bring the child back into line. Short of always leaving the little monsters at home, it seems a parent cannot win.

Thrashers(a while back we were at a sporting event and the Little Fan somehow managed to scream "kick his ass" exactly when there was a lull in the crowd noise and boy did I get some looks. He's 5 now and tries to control those outbursts but I have been trying for years myself)Fan :cussing:

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

I'm not a parent, but I would posit that the fact that disciplining your child would send mixed messages is your first mistake. Children should never be allowed to "run around" in a restaurant. Period. There is a time and place for "kids to be kids" but a public restaurant at meal time is not that time or place.

Kids
 

I'm scared just from reading your post. I'm betting your kid wears ties by the time he hits first grade.

Kids
 

I think, actually, that many people have seen so much bad behavior, totally unchecked by parents, that this isn't really an unreasonable assumption. Nor is the assumption by singles that all parents think their kids are adored by everyone and that anyone who objects to Billy's sticky fingers being put all over her new skirt is a kid-hating monster entirely baseless.

We'd discussed this before on the FL board: people without kids rarely see decently behaved kids (or good parents trying to get their kids to behave) because parents with the sense to raise their kids decently don't take them to places where people go reasonably expecting to be free of kiddie intrusion. Only the parents with no sense of appropriate parental training or control take their predictably badly-behaved kids there.

Similarly, the responsible parents also end up thinking all singles hate children irrationally, because they are hanging out in places where responsible parents take kids, and therefore see lots of passably behaved children and can't understand people's reactions.

Kids
 

I'm all for kids wearing ties. It's easier to grab them by the neck when they misbehave. :P

Women
 

Whoa. Not only women pull this stunt. Just for the record, I'd like to add that I've actually had this line laid on me by an ex-boyfriend.


C(ex)deuced

Kids
 

Whose outbursts? Yours or the Little Fan?

spooky(just seeking context here)fish

Kids
 

I have trouble not cheating on my s/o when I'm drunk and stoned and around aggressive beautiful women. Solution: I don't get drunk and stoned and hang out with aggressive beautiful women.

If your kids are brats, don't take them on airplanes or out to nice restaurants. If you have to take them on airplanes, drug the shit out of them.

str(you think I'm kidding, but I'm not, and by the way, I'm having kids in a few years and I'm going to practice what I preach)8

tying threads
 

After reading this morning's posts I am convinced that if Coltrane and his SO just get married and have kids, all their problems will be solved.

I also see a long, happy and fruitful union for Str8 and his fiancee.;)

r(playing little miss judgealot today)p

Kids
 

Yes! Do I get to advise on shoes?

Parent w/ spirited kids
 

I second that wholeheartedly! Mainly, I don't want to hold babies because I'm scared I'll drop it or that it'll do something repulsive on my clothing. Parents then kindly reassure you that you won't and it won't. But then I'm sunk because I can't say "I'm really completely uninterested in holding babies." I'm happy for my friends who are parents, but your friend will ask to cuddle the thing if em wants!

p(totally bored by kids until they're about 3)j

Kids
 

Nah. He listens to Eminem and cusses like a sailor if I don't remind him now and again that it isn't appropriate to call his little buddies fuckers and his teacher a bitch -- and yes, there was a parent-teacher conference about that one, talk about reliving bad moments from one's own childhood. I was a wildly expressive child and I don't want to squelch his individualness at all. That being said, he should, nay MUST, be respectful of other people when we are out and about. He has been going places since he was born and knows how to behave in different settings -- if he looses his mind and forgets how to behave he is reminded and then escalating discipline is employed if the initial correction doesn't stick. He is old enough to understand that the discipline is not driven by anger or violence, but initially driven by our obligation to direct him and then by our disappointment in his continuing lapse. I am not saying that my kid can't have fun, depending on the setting, but I won't have him out showing his ass and disturbing the unsuspecting and unwilling public.

Thrashers(See, everyone complains about kids misbehaving but when I admit that I do what I must to keep mine in line I am the bad guy)Fan

Parent w/ spirited kids - staring problem
 

You know, I'm beginning to think kids are like cats. the less they think you are inclined to like them, the more attention they pay to you.

I am usually unshaven, unshowered, wearing a fisherman's hat and sunglasses on weekends. I'm not the sort of person you'd think would be open to sunny conversation. Yet, amazingly, while I'm eating breakfast, so kid will start looking at me while picking his nose or start crawling over the booth toward me. I try my damndest to focus on the newspaper, but eventually wind up addressing the little bugger. Next thing you know, I'm making faces at the kid because that's what I think is polite, and the kid is now locked on me. I wouldn't really mind that, but the kid generally doesn't know how to end the conversation - he just keeps staring and I'm left to try to read the paper while being stared at, which is maddening because soon the parent begins to watch what's going on. So here I am, sick, tired, trying to get angry at the latest claptrap from Paul Krugman and I'm being watched by two people as I fumble with my chopsticks eating take out sashimi and calamari salad (an excellent weekend breakfast).

S(Maybe if I go up and pinch the cheek of each kid I see like some creepy old aunt they'll leave me alone)D

Kids
 

It sounds like you are diligently working to prevent your kid's becoming the next Tucker Max. Kudos.

tying threads
 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sobbing:


Nothing frightens me more...

Kids
 

Sorry, my own outbursts. Being at a spoting event triggers the toggle switch in my brain that, during normal business hours, keeps me from shouting "shove your stick down his throat" and "stupid blind umpires SUCK!"

Thrashers(the SO reminds me to not use colorful language when children might be around so throw some expletives in those quotes to get an idea of my state of mind when I watch sports on TV)Fan

Women
 

Fair enough. I'm thinking that the lawyer/non-lawyer couples are more likely to get tied up in knots over the essential recockulousness of that line than female/male or female/female couples.

But I'm also old enough to know that pointing out logical fallacies in your opponent's argument doesn't work with people whom you want to have like you when the argument is over.*

* Except Bilmore.

Kids
 

I'm thinking you should shoot back "just wait until he's had a couple of beers.":cheers:

Parent w/ spirited kids - staring problem
 

SD, if you smile at them and then look away, they'll lose interest pretty quickly . . .

but maybe it's just the hat.

Parent w/ spirited kids - staring problem
 

The more I read of your travails on Sat. morns, the more convinced I am that you need to pack a hip flask or a half-empty bottle of scotch to pull out and place on the table as soon as the kids get near you. That'll move the kids off (with help from the parents) mighty fast.

parents with spirited kids
 

Bah humbug.

Kids
 

I think I may have overreacted to your seeming to saythat childless people are pretty uniformly advocates of thrashing children just for existing.

I will say that I think any kid under age 5 needs pretty constant, vigilant supervision in public places (that are not specifically for kids, like McDonald's play area). Even if the kid doesn't break anything, they frequently think I'm friendly (hah!) and grab at my clothes with their saliva/cheerio crumb/sticky juice covered hands. Maybe this makes me overly intolerant.

tying threads
 

She's so on the same page; she always winds up sitting behind a seat-kicking brat. There are so many effective child-downers these days that it's a mystery why parents don't employ them for air-travel. That said, Infinity and others have made me consider that there is a real need for test-running kid behavior in public. Often, however, I think parents overestimate their kids' ability to handle the situations in which they are put. I.e. don't expect your four year old kid to be able to sit through Hannibal for 2 hours.

str(still shuddering about that one)8.