Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

These oversimplifications are why people keep confronting you on this issue.:

No one thinks he needs the money like no one thinks anyone who makes tons of money needs it. But that's very different than saying he shouldn't take it.

No one thinks it's good for the Democratic Party, but everyone arguing with you here takes issue with your assertion that it is bad for the Democratic Party. I've tried to distinguish between being paid huge amounts of money before running (Hillary). You won't bite and continue to act like these two things are the same or should be treated the same way. You actively ignore the many reasons why Obama would be paid handsomely and act like the fact that the perception of corruption is dispositive of whether or not he should take money for speaking engagements after leaving office. I do not think people are focused on this the way you are. I do not think if he (and every Democratic President) declined all money from anyone forever after leaving office that that would change one voter's impression that politicians are bought and paid for. I and others have said that it's the actual access lobbyists and industries have, the campaign finance laws, and the actual decisions politicians make which continually favor corporations over people, etc. that make it so. You ignore it all and continue to act like this "soft corruption" theory is settled.

TM

Re: When I was young, I thought that everyone was Catholic.
 

Yeah, but a lot of the Catholic left is like me and has long since become somewhere between actively pro-choice (me) and accepting of the status quo if still opposed personally to abortion (my wife).

It's mostly the Catholic right that is rabid on the issue.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I did not "attack" them. I probably am one. What I said was,

I am happy to entertain any proposal. Without minimizing the importance of healthcare or the environment or other things, I'm really talking about the economy, and the distribution of the gains from whatever growth we enjoy. How to create good jobs with good wages. This is a big problem, and it's not just the US.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

It's good for the Democratic Party for Obama to be talking to Wall Street types, even if he is paid for it.

There, someone does think it is good.

We shouldn't cater to them, but we should talk with them.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Especially right now.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

True.

I hear people saying that if I think about it, I shouldn't have a problem with it (OK), that Democrats should work harder to explain to other people why they shouldn't have a problem with it (noble but foolish), and that Democrats shouldn't abandon core principles to satisfy idiot voters (true, but if it's a core Democratic principle that someone with a lot of money should have the opportunity to get more on Wall Street, that's not the hill I want to die on). I don't see anyone actually disputing that it is unhelpful.

You are quite right that Hillary hurt herself doing this, and you are quite right that there is a distinction between what she did and what he is doing, but since I wasn't talking about her in the first place it doesn't change my view about what he is doing.

I'm not ignoring them, but they don't address my point.

OK. I respect your view on that one, and we can agree to have different views. FWIW, I don't think it's a lot of people.

I think Democrats need to be better than Republicans on this stuff, and that it's not just the actual decisions that matter -- it's the narrative and the story around it as well. YMMV. It's a big tent, and we can agree to disagree on this one, too. Thank you for taking seriously what I had to say.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Well, we've effective had two years of effectively legislating in the last 16, during which we got major bills through that include healthcare, minimum wage, and CFPB. If we can build a majority, there is more, but those have some impact.

The hardest two areas to deal with are the demise of unions, who to some extent helped bring it on themselves by failing to support things like trade agreements that support unionization abroad or coordinated Mexican unionization drives when NAFTA was adopted, and automation. The unions in particular need more focus at the state as well as federal level.

The other really tough area is encouraging the growth of tech industries outside SV and Boston. One of the key issues here is resistance: building strong university tech communities is key, and a lot of red states aren't willing to support that.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

The bills passed during those two years were good and important, but did not make much of a difference to the issue I'm talking about. I understand why Dodd-Frank (e.g.) was a priority, but it's hard to explain to voters why it should matter to them, and that's a problem. Democrats have lots of priorities, and the windows to change things are not big. It's easy to imagine getting another window and using it to accomplish good and important things which nevertheless do not change the economic outlook for many people. Free college doesn't do much for people who are already in the workforce.

I guess I am skeptical that Democrats will really do much to improve things for unions, because I haven't seen it. There are too many pro-business Democrats who don't want to upset corporate interests who want to stick it to unions. eta: I really do think strong unions are good for the country and the middle class, and I wish that Democrats would do more here.

Everyone likes tech jobs, but there are only going to be so many of them. Not sure it is an answer to what ails much of the country.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

What jobs are? That's not a bad question to start with.

I'm very lucky. I've worked with two Universities in red parts of the country on their tech transfer programs. Both have created a lot of jobs in their areas.

It's my hammer. I look at other red states and see nails.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Maybe so, but that's a political problem.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I'm still not sure why we're supposed to focus on Obama/Trump voters, and that article starts with the assumption that there were a lot of them. Were there?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

That has nothing to do with my question: what jobs are you going to create?

If you're going to complain about lack of policy solutions, please try to stay on a policy discussion for a few minutes without worrying about the politics.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

He's no Colbert, but I thought he was really good.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

We need to turn out people who didn't vote, and we need to convince people who did vote to vote for us. Neither is sufficient.

More importantly, Not Bob won the K race, and we need a new thread!

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I see a massive political problem, and a massive policy problem, and the two are tied together. The massive policy problem is that moderate Democrats' (and their counterparts in Europe) policy prescriptions have not created economic benefits for most people for well over a decade. The idea that you should adopt technocratic growth-oriented polices to lift all boats hasn't worked, both because the Great Recession showed that technocracy isn't all that and because the growth we've seen since then hasn't lifted all boats -- it's lifting only the luxury yachts.

The massive political problem is that voters resent this, don't see the Left as solving their problems, and have turned to a nativist Right that is more interested in restoring traditional social hierarchies and dumping on out-groups (especially but certainly not only immigrants). The Right is much more interested in zero-sum transfers of wealth and social status than in creating opportunity. A positive message about what government can do can resonate and can defeat this, but the Democrats don't have it right now. One can criticize Hillary for being a bad messenger, but it's not like Bernie, Joe, Martin or anyone else had a great platform that she ignored in the general election.

Now, you can say (and you did!) that Obama had a great platform, but didn't have the votes on the Hill to get it passed after 2010. I agree! But that's a big part of the problem. During Obama's time, I thought he was being wise by taking the long view, that voters would reward Democrats for governing well and responsibly. I was wrong! We got Trump and Republican control of government instead. So, saying that the Democrats have great policies isn't appealing if those policies get you two years of positive change, six years of stagnation, and then two/four/??? years of retrograde devolution. I love Obama, but in hindsight it's pretty tempting to say that he got the policies right but the politics wrong. (Could he have built a durable Democratic majority if he'd done things differently? I really don't know.). And if that's the case, maybe the policies weren't quite right -- maybe the policies please you and me but didn't do enough to address the real problems that many voters experience. Obama faced opposition from Republicans, true, but he never found a way to make Republicans pay a political price for that opposition, which is one reason we have Justice Gorsuch instead of Justice Garland.

Which is to say, I don't have good answers, but I do think that discussing policy as if it's untethered to politics is, at a high level, possibly part of the problem.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I'd dispute most, but okay.

I'd also suggest that the Bush tax cuts and post-recession austerity have a lot to do with why the yachts are rising and nothing else is. Especially at the state and local level. Teacher and social worker and nurse are good middle class jobs whose wages used to keep up with inflation.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Come on. No one has said it's a core Democratic principle. What we've said is that ignorant and stupid voters lump everyone into the same boat because Republicans (and now Bernie and other lefties) conflate actual issues of corruption with the perception of corruption. I do not think it's foolish to draw a distinction between the two and to try to inform the electorate of the difference. In fact, I think it's the Bernies who intentionally try to blur the lines between the two things that are doing considerable damage to the Democratic Party. If the President stops taking speaking engagements, do you think Republicans and Bernie stop trying to blur the line?

Hell, you just said a few posts ago that Democrats have done a poor job helping struggling people when you know that they've been killing themselves repairing damage done by Republicans and trying to help those who are being wiped out by market forces. When the people they're trying to help turn to their left and right and see firemen and teachers as the enemies who are making way too much money, it's an uphill battle. And one that is made harder because it's way easier to point and say, "See? Bad! Let's destroy government," than it is to say, "Here's why we should invest in this, that, and the other. Let's build." Pointing at Obama is the former and it perpetuates the ignorance that Republicans thrive on.

Ah. I see. Although you brought up this idea of soft corruption purposefully within the realm of political corruption and politicians being beholden to banks and other special interests, we can't talk about why Obama taking speaking fees isn't really the same as other types of fees that really are problematic because you didn't bring up those particular examples. Got it.

I am struggling to understand why you cannot discuss your point in context. If 999 people think that Obama is being paid because his story and experience have value and 1 person thinks it's because he was making decisions during his Presidency that have value to Cantor and is collecting on that payoff, your point has very little value. If the numbers are more like 60-40, then the discussion becomes more interesting. But to avoid any type of contextual discussion makes it seem like you have a very weak argument.

Whew. Common ground. I would love if you would concede that Bernie and the authors you're quoting shouldn't fan a spark that is basically nothing until it becomes an actual issue, but I'll take what I can get.

Democrats are far and away better than Republicans on this stuff--the narrative and the actual decisions. You can't possibly disagree with that.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

At some stage governing is about coming up with a policy that works and selling it.

Yes, that is hard. And there are many ways to do it, including working from the grass roots to develop the policy.

But the alternative of snowing the public on what you can do whether it works or not is a truly lousy approach, even if it is the political low hanging fruit.

So there needs to be a debate first about what works, what can get us those jobs. That debate needs to be about more than white male working class men, it needs to be about all people, and acknowledge that the unemployment rate and average income for minorities and women lags very significantly behind that for white men.

The Republicans right now are making policy behind closed doors, without committee hearings or public discussions or input. We should do the opposite, but when we do, our focus needs to be on delivering jobs not on winning votes.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

And maybe there was some irrational reason why voters have gone for a guy with a message that says "Let's go back to the 50s, all these types of people are bad and dangerous and stealing jobs." If Obama had been white would Trump's rise even be possible?

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

OK. Bush hasn't been in office for more than eight years, and Democrats too often went along with austerity and/or failed to make a good case against it. You know I'm no fan of it.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

It is exactly because Republicans (and others) try to confuse things that Democrats have to be better in a way that resonates with voters. I think you and I agree on this principle, and disagree as a practical matter about how to do that in this particular instance.

I said I wish Obama had made a different choice, and I do. I would like to think I can express that opinion to all of you here without being seen as "pointing at Obama" more publicly. It's harder now to talk to your own crowd without sharing it with the rest of the world, but I'm not attacking Obama on Twitter, Facebook, or anywhere else.

You can certainly talk about it. But if I think what Obama did is problematic, telling me that other things are more problematic may be true but also not especially convincing re what I said. I just told you that I agree with you, not that you can't talk about it.

Not sure how to flesh out this context. I think we are between 999/1000 and 400/1000, and I think it's material. You don't. Not sure how to resolve that -- our gut reads of the world we're in is different. Not trying to shut you down on the point -- I recognize the disagreement, and am not seeing a way to resolve it.

I draw a big distinction between Bernie (and his ilk) and the authors I quoted, all of whom are relatively centrist and generally unsympathetic to Bernie's crowd. I will concede whatever you want about Bernie -- as I said before, I haven't seen anything he or his people have said about Obama and Cantor, and was not sympathetic with their attacks on Hillary. Yglesias and Barro are not activists -- they are in the job of commenting about politics and policy, so I wouldn't use your characterization of "fanning a spark" with what they've said.

Democrats are usually better on the policy, and they need to make sure they're better on the politics and narrative. Trump somehow flipped that with Hillary.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

On your first sentence, totally. On your second, I don't want to diminish the reaction to Obama's race that you are pointing to, but I think the problem is bigger than that -- look at the Brexit vote and LePen for examples of the way that the Right has mobilized these sentiments even without Obama to galvanize the bigoted.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Huh. I'm wondering what you think that might be.

Don't tell me. You think they went for Trump because he is such a devout Christian?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I think many, many things contributed to where we are now in the world. Shitty turnout in the UK, Russian interference all over the place, a rise in racism sparked by reactions to terrorism, your point about gains in the economy going to the wealthy, the amazingly shitty Republican field, Comey's idiotic contributions, and the ease with which the right can deliver a message of "Has any of this shit we've undermined at every turn worked for you? Let's burn it all down since you have nothing to lose" to an ignorant and stupid electorate.

But if Obama were white, I don't think Trump gains much traction here. The gains made in 2010 wouldn't be anywhere near as big on the right, which means there would be far fewer gerrymandered Republican districts, the racist outpouring that is the Tea Party vote wouldn't exist. Etc., etc., etc.

And I think if Hillary were a man, Trump would have been beaten like a drum.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

If it makes you feel better, the NYT editorial board seems to agree with you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/o...imes&smtyp=cur

If it makes you feel worse, I think this part of the editorial is as off as much of what you wrote:

'The Obamas are starting a foundation whose work will include “training and elevating a new generation of political leaders in America,” Eric Schultz, an Obama adviser, said in a statement. “President Obama will deliver speeches from time to time. Some of those speeches will be paid, some will be unpaid, and regardless of venue or sponsor, President Obama will be true to his values, his vision, and his record.”

But why not elevate a new generation of political leaders and stay true to his values by giving his speech fees to his foundation and other charities focused on those goals?'

This supreme focus on what they don't like and the short shrift given to his plans for public service is just irresponsible.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

They absolutely did. Not being able to get more revenue is one of the glaring failures of the Obama administration (although I wouldn't blame him).

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

One thing that bothers me about all this focus on the Obama/Trump voter is it misses this fundamental point.

And people don't even realize that they dislike Hillary in part because she's a woman. The ingrained misogyny is just so prevalent.

Out her
 

Two in a row, bay-bee! Wait, does this mean that Kafka (sniff) was right all those years ago when he thought I was one of Penske's (sniff) socks?

Whoa if true! (as the kids say on Twitter).

ETA: premature post. Re line was intended to be "Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals."

Now I need to think of a board title. Hmmm

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

Hard to argue counterfactuals, but I think it is both true that people opposed Obama and Democrats out of racism, and that opposition to Obama and Democrats fed and encouraged racism.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

I think it is both true that editorial boards encourage otherwise normal people to engage in tut-tutting, and that people who like to engage in tut-tutting are disproportionately drawn to editorial boards.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be rediculous
 

2010 State of the Union:

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.