Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 503457)

I loathe him because I am the same age as he is. I got drafted, saw combat, and he hired a doctor to get him out of the draft so that other people could go in his stead. And the bastard then said he always wanted a Purple Heart. Calling out John McCain? Making fun of a Gold Star Mother?

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 503401)

ETA: I think the Left needs to be a little more judicious in throwing allegations of sexism and racism. It is tiring to hear everyone who disagrees with progressives smeared at least to some small extent as a racist or sexist. The Dems can smear Trump with this stuff, but they should be careful about overusing those attacks on all non-progressives. High risk of desensitization, and backlash.

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 503428)

Are we allowed to talk about sex on the politics board? Because I can't help myself.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 503439)

I'm better than you who care because while you'll be manipulated, I'll state flatly to anyone who asks, "We're hardly all that different from Putin's Russia. Increasingly, power is the only law."

You'll argue otherwise, I'm sure. But if you boil the current corporatist system to its core, that's our reality.

It's all a game. The fear and loathing of Trump by elite sorts isn't because he's a twisted bigot. It's because he creates volatility. Unpredictability is the one character the oweners of the systems that run your life, mine, and everyone's here, can't abide. It's just perfect for them he also happens to be a flaming lunatic. Were a sober, sensible populist to emerge, they'd have to kill him.

If you still believe in the institutions, you're no better than the rednecks or the true believers at Hillary rallies. I'm a lot more honest than you, and far less self-deluded.

How much money and power do you have? That's the entirety of the value of your life here, and the measure of the leverage and control over it you will enjoy. Politics is bread and circuses. It's an annoyance, an irritant... And it offends me to be impacted by it enough to have to consider it.

ETA: I also feel like a sucker for desiring any sort of reform of this govt or its systems. That is never going to happen. I'm engaging in the worst form of parlor game there. Power will do as it likes, with only mild concessions here and there to keep away unrest.

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 503460)

Semi-outable photograph from an unusual source:

http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/watchstories.php

Enlarge the first picture. There are certain legal circles where I am known by my Military MOS.

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 503460)

Semi-outable photograph from an unusual source:

http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/watchstories.php

Enlarge the first picture. There are certain legal circles where I am known by my Military MOS.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 503439)

I'm better than you who care because while you'll be manipulated, I'll state flatly to anyone who asks, "We're hardly all that different from Putin's Russia. Increasingly, power is the only law."

You'll argue otherwise, I'm sure. But if you boil the current corporatist system to its core, that's our reality.

It's all a game. The fear and loathing of Trump by elite sorts isn't because he's a twisted bigot. It's because he creates volatility. Unpredictability is the one character the oweners of the systems that run your life, mine, and everyone's here, can't abide. It's just perfect for them he also happens to be a flaming lunatic. Were a sober, sensible populist to emerge, they'd have to kill him.

If you still believe in the institutions, you're no better than the rednecks or the true believers at Hillary rallies. I'm a lot more honest than you, and far less self-deluded.

How much money and power do you have? That's the entirety of the value of your life here, and the measure of the leverage and control over it you will enjoy. Politics is bread and circuses. It's an annoyance, an irritant... And it offends me to be impacted by it enough to have to consider it.

ETA: I also feel like a sucker for desiring any sort of reform of this govt or its systems. That is never going to happen. I'm engaging in the worst form of parlor game there. Power will do as it likes, with only mild concessions here and there to keep away unrest.

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 503440)

Before I gave up, I would engage with Trump supporters on twitter. I did not seek it out, but I would retweet something by a NR contributor and then get the obligatory, "Not voting Trump is a vote for Killary!" Many Trump supporters are unable to understand basic math, it seems, that would demonstrate that this is patently untrue, nor were they persuaded that my non-vote for Hillary was by the same logic, a vote for Trump. I was also repeatedly told by Sean Hannity that #NeverTrump owns Hillary and the Supreme Court and all of the atrocities she will commit. As you would expect, Sean Hannity does not respond to reason. You are coming perilously close to Hannity logic here.

Sebby's vote belongs to him and him alone. He owns his own vote, not the collective votes of Hillary or Trump supporters. He has the right to vote as if his own vote is meaningless to the election except as to its impact on his own character. Even in a close election.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 503467)

Of course he does. And when I say own it, what I mean, accept that if he's going to make the masturbatory gesture of voting for Johnson instead of a real challenger to Trump, own up to the fact that it might make a difference.

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 503474)

That's the point. Trump's loss isn't on #NeverTrump, it is on Trump and his supporters who nominated an unelectable imbecile and failed to make a case why #NeverTrump should vote for him.

But if Hillary loses PA by one vote, that's not on Sebby, that's on Hillary for being so corrupt and dishonest, among other failures, and the party for nominating such a weak candidate.

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 503474)

That's the point. Trump's loss isn't on #NeverTrump, it is on Trump and his supporters who nominated an unelectable imbecile and failed to make a case why #NeverTrump should vote for him.

But if Hillary loses PA by one vote, that's not on Sebby, that's on Hillary for being so corrupt and dishonest, among other failures, and the party for nominating such a weak candidate.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 503475)

C'mon, that's horseshit. They can share the blame.

I agree that Hillary isn't a great candidate. Calling her "corrupt" is hyperbolic, inaccurate, and a disservice to the many politicians who work hard to actually do corrupt things. I don't think Hillary is any more dishonest than just about every other politician, but I do think that she has learned over decades in the public eye that things go poorly when she speaks her mind, and as a result she has developed a public persona that is controlled, calculating and inauthentic.

But in the end, the voters make the decision, and if you choose to piss away your vote on an expressive gesture in favor of a candidate who isn't going to win, you share the blame if a different vote would have made a difference. As I say, that happened to me once.