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Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 04-22-2013 02:31 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 478722)
I suppose in historical context, you are right. In terms of his nondenominational bent and his disavowance of any creed, he would certainly fit under the chalice of UU today.
When I was an associate, I got immersed in residual legal issues involved in the struggles of the UU to take over the Congregational church. It was a bit of an eye-opener historically to pick apart the charters of several of the churches formed in 17th century Massachusetts as they developed over the years.

Spiritually, I think Jefferson would be closer to UUs today than Adams, but historically, they would have been one of the houses he threw a pox on.

The "disavowal of any creed" is kind of fun; once I had to do a 1023 (tax exemption application) for one of the old unitarian churches around here, and when I got to the part of the form for churches that asks them to describe the creed of the church and the church structure and hierarchy, my clients really wanted to fight the hypo. I solved the problem by attaching some nice church publications and cross referencing them rather than answering "none, and proud of it, bozos!" in each place. Even though that is what the publications said.

Atticus Grinch 04-22-2013 02:37 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 478720)
A UU? I don't think so. The UUs were New Englanders, and while Jefferson's brand of theism and agnosticism may have made him a fellow traveler, I can't think of anything he said or did that would suggest actual UU membership. Jefferson's founding of UVa was very much contrary to the goals of the UUs, since it was explicitly nondenominational (verging on the anti-religious even) while the UUs were aggressively focused on taking over and running universities (like Harvard) at the time. They wanted to teach and control the religion classes that made up a sizable portion of the curriculum.
Jefferson's religious life can be neatly divided into three phases. Prior to independence, he was conventional CofE and attended Bruton Parish in Williamsburg while in college, and was on the Vestry of Fredericksville Parish in Albemarle County. Phase Two (post-Revolution) was his public life and presidency, where he was non-specific about religious observances and was pretty cool with whatever anyone happened to be preaching, attending all Christian services (except Catholic). Phase Three was his retirement to Monticello, where he went pretty hardcore Deist -- as he wrote a friend in 1819, "I am a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Everything I've seen indicates the Founders had two religions -- a public one filled with invocations to Divine Providence and the Creator, and a private one, which ranged from genuine belief to practical atheism. In other words, not really far off from today, in practice.

ETA: An interesting data point on Jefferson is that none of the parish records indicate he was a registered communicant -- which means he may always have been more interested in the governance aspects of parish life than the sacraments. This phenomenon lives on to this day, as plenty of people belong to churches while not feeling terribly strongly about faith, ritual and sacrament.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 04-22-2013 02:56 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 478725)
Jefferson's religious life can be neatly divided into three phases. Prior to independence, he was conventional CofE and attended Bruton Parish in Williamsburg while in college, and was on the Vestry of Fredericksville Parish in Albemarle County. Phase Two (post-Revolution) was his public life and presidency, where he was non-specific about religious observances and was pretty cool with whatever anyone happened to be preaching, attending all Christian services (except Catholic). Phase Three was his retirement to Monticello, where he went pretty hardcore Deist -- as he wrote a friend in 1819, "I am a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Everything I've seen indicates the Founders had two religions -- a public one filled with invocations to Divine Providence and the Creator, and a private one, which ranged from genuine belief to practical atheism. In other words, not really far off from today, in practice.

ETA: An interesting data point on Jefferson is that none of the parish records indicate he was a registered communicant -- which means he may always have been more interested in the governance aspects of parish life than the sacraments. This phenomenon lives on to this day, as plenty of people belong to churches while not feeling terribly strongly about faith, ritual and sacrament.
But the BIG BUT is that Phase III also includes the founding of UVa and the very significant innovations in curriculum there - moving religion out of the core of the program. The later Jeff. also likes to criticize the Jeff. of William & Mary days and the established church; somehwere between TJ1 & TJ2 a real rejection of TJ1 goes on.

By the way, I think he wrote some of his hardest core deist stuff while still President, so I'm not sure the three phases are quite so neat.

Hank Chinaski 04-22-2013 03:01 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 478726)
But the BIG BUT is that Phase III also includes the founding of UVa and the very significant innovations in curriculum there - moving religion out of the core of the program. The later Jeff. also likes to criticize the Jeff. of William & Mary days and the established church; somehwere between TJ1 & TJ2 a real rejection of TJ1 goes on.

By the way, I think he wrote some of his hardest core deist stuff while still President, so I'm not sure the three phases are quite so neat.
He was also the first Commissioner of Patents. If don nickles had won the nomination and presidency in 96 I would have been another Commissioner of Patents. I have yet to start a school though.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 04-22-2013 03:11 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 478727)
He was also the first Commissioner of Patents. If don nickles had won the nomination and presidency in 96 I would have been another Commissioner of Patents. I have yet to start a school though.
I can proudly say that I have served as the Editor-in-Chief of a publication founded by one Mr. William F. Buckley, and that his name and mine are thus still regularly associated.

He may not be Thomas Jefferson, but, then, I actually did become caretaker of the legacy.

bold_n_brazen 04-22-2013 03:21 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 478729)
I can proudly say that I have served as the Editor-in-Chief of a publication founded by one Mr. William F. Buckley, and that his name and mine are thus still regularly associated.

He may not be Thomas Jefferson, but, then, I actually did become caretaker of the legacy.
Y'all are boring.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 04-22-2013 04:03 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen (Post 478730)
Y'all are boring.
Maybe for normal people, but you know we all are lawyers, right?

Hank Chinaski 04-22-2013 04:04 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen (Post 478730)
Y'all are boring.
have I mentioned that my ex-aunt played a mother in an American Pie movie and she walked in on her TCB and he splouged on her?

p.s. i have not had a running injury for years but right now I have what feels like a muscle pull underneath my big toe. how does this get cured?

Did you just call me Coltrane? 04-22-2013 04:07 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 478723)
Wow, it's almost like you don't know any young people.
Get off his lawn.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 04-22-2013 04:13 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bold_n_brazen (Post 478730)
Y'all are boring.
TJ1 liked it when you hummed with his balls in your mouth. TJ2 not so much.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 04-22-2013 04:16 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 478723)
Wow, it's almost like you don't know any young people.
http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress...g_at_cloud.jpg

Tyrone Slothrop 04-22-2013 04:56 PM
Re: Towards A Virtual Williamsburg!
 
Sure wish I could do this:

http://i.minus.com/ino7gJku4KVEn.gif

Adder 04-22-2013 04:58 PM
Re: Towards A Virtual Williamsburg!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 478740)
Sure wish I could do this:

http://i.minus.com/ino7gJku4KVEn.gif
Don't sell yourself short. I'm confident you could make blurry gifs if you really set your mind to it. :D

Atticus Grinch 04-22-2013 06:25 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 478726)
By the way, I think he wrote some of his hardest core deist stuff while still President, so I'm not sure the three phases are quite so neat.
He started writing his expurgated Bible sometime around 1800, but he kept the project quiet because, well, it would have been heretical. I think he expressed a form of Creator-God religion in his private correspondence pretty consistently, but always on the Down Low.

Hank Chinaski 04-22-2013 06:38 PM
Re: Okay
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 478744)
He started writing his expurgated Bible sometime around 1800, but he kept the project quiet because, well, it would have been heretical. I think he expressed a form of Creator-God religion in his private correspondence pretty consistently, but always on the Down Low.
to have gone this far into a UVa discussion w/o mentioning the Parking Lot movie is, well, heretical.


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