Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 491042)

It appears that over the last year more people living there made the opposite choice. I think that choice had more to do with survival than Islam, myself. Over the last few years, Assad's Syria has been a place where random barrels of gas explode, leaving everyone in a neighborhood to die a wretched death, and after a few years and over a 100,000 bodies, they may have been ready for any choice at all.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 491028)

My general view is that 9/11 was sufficiently shocking that everyone gets a grace period for shit they said. The period lasts anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months depending on how "close" they were (not just geographically, but including whether they lost someone, etc.). They don't need to apologize for that, just show by their words an actions that it was an aberration.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 491044)

Also, people are fucking stupid.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 491044)

Remember right after 9/11 when everyone was so nice and pulling for each other and, despite the terrible feeling of loss, there was kind of this warm glow in that we finally felt unified and everyone kind of supported one another?

Well, a few days after 9/11, I was on the subway platform and this group of ignorant assholes (all of them black) starts harassing these three Sikhs because they were wearing what were quite clearly Sikh turbans. I had to head these guys off and tell them that they weren't Muslim (like it would have been okay if they were) and to leave them alone. It is absolutely amazing how people who are subjected to bullshit every day of their lives are so quick to mete it out on others.

Long story short, I'm not sure I'm with you on always giving people a pass because they went through something terrible. Also, people are fucking stupid.

TM

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 491036)

The investor group that came in the next day, or two days later, and bought all the solid assets, with a partial government guarantee, would have been happy to keep Uncle Wayne's line of credit open. They would have been making a decent return on his L/C without having to pay some B-school grad fresh out of Wharton $250K plus bonus his first year to buy shit and call it Shine-ola.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 491010)

I don't disagree with you. Islam is an old religion and subject to a huge range of interpretations, as any other.

Here, in sum, is my view, or part of it. You and GGG and Wonk anyone else can feel free to call me racist, or tell me that I obviously hate all Muslims, or any other shit you feel like spewing. Forgive me in advance for not responding.

Today, and in recent years, violent extremists that find their inspiration and justification in religion are largely Muslim. (That does not mean "exclusively" Muslim, nor "all Muslims are bad," nor that there are not violent extremists finding their justification in something other than religion, such as national identity or race.)

These violent extremists get a level of support and sympathy among Muslims that I view as far too high -- higher than I would expect if, say, Catholic militias were blowing up Protestant churches and vice versa. (This does not mean that there has never been horrifying sectarian violence among Christians that many Christians supported or did not protest.)

Part of that support is seen in the phenomenon of Muslims from Western countries joining overseas extremist groups in a way that I believe is extraordinary in history.

Islam -- not inherently, but the way in which it is being taught to people -- has something to do with the above. I don't know why. I don't know why a Sunni cares so much about who Muhammad designated as his successor that he would kill a Shiite. In some instances, "has something to do with" means "is a primary factor," in others it means "contributes to, along with many other factors."

Islamic countries -- countries that are not just predominantly Muslim, but in which Islam is a dominant cultural fact and influence (for example, countries in which you can be jailed for defaming Islam) -- have certain cultural norms that I find disgusting, particularly relating to the treatment of women. (This does not mean that no non-Muslim nations treat women poorly.) That treatment is not limited to government policy but permeates down to a man-on-the-street level, and is often worse at that level, and in my personal experience also carries over, to a thankfully lesser extent, to Muslims who do not live in Islamic countries.

I believe that the way Islam is taught has a great deal to do with the last item, too.

All of the above does NOT lead me to believe that Islam is evil, or Muslims are evil. It does lead me to believe that there is a problem within Islam, generally, that needs to be fixed within Islam. In a similar vein to how I believe that there is a problem of racism within American society, that needs to be fixed within American society.

All of the above renders me a bile-spouting Muslim hater, I realize.

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 491024)

I may be wrong, but I think if the banking system had collapsed, it would have been the super rich that would have been fucked.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 491049)

OK, so my hypothesis here is that Islam is a symptom of the violent extremism you're describing rather than the cause -- i.e., that what you are describing is true in a bunch of countries that happen to be Islamic, is the result of factors other than their religion, and is expressed in an Islamic form because because such things often find a religious outlet and the religion in these countries happens to be Islam.

I think the phenomena you're describing is about the part of the world stretching from North Africa across to Pakistan. It's happening in nations which don't have much legitimacy, because the people in them don't see themselves as part of a national community. Countries like Iraq and Syria seem to be melting away. Lebanon often seems to be as well. Some nations that do have real legitimacy, such as Tunisia, Egypt and Iran. Absent strong national identity, both ethnic and religious identity becomes more important. Kurds and Pashtuns are examples of the former; Sunni and Shia are examples of the latter.

So you have a lot of instability caused by the lack of legitimate nation states. In that vacuum, ethnic and religious group identities assume more importance. But the fundamental problem is that vacuum.

Now maybe there's an argument that the vacuum can be attributed to religious beliefs -- that just as Max Weber thought that Protestant beliefs explained the success of Western capitalism, Islamic beliefs explain the politics of the Middle East. I'm all ears.

To your point about the treatment of women, I agree, but I again am not sure this is anything specially true about Islam -- which is to say, I don't see a reason to single out Islam on that score.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 491041)

Counterexamples would be helpful if I said "exclusively" rather than "largely". I did not.

That should be clear, but I think your view, that you are no longer interested in trying to convince anyone, means you also are no longer interested in actually reading, or giving honest consideration to, what anyone says that is contrary to what you believe.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 491052)

I still dispute largely, and was trying to focus on just that one issue with respect to counterexamples rather than write another essay to add the all the other essays. And I am going to resist the urge to point out that we pounded the shit out of Iraq for the better part of the last three decades, and now are complaining about Muslim violence and how it's caused by Islam. (Ok, maybe I didn't resist that urge.)

I have indeed listened to all your points, but that doesn't mean I'm going to respond to each one. There are some I agree with, some I disagree with, almost all I'd qualify. Yeah, I focus on what I'm most interested in in the responses, or on where I have an issue with somebody, and don't call out every place I agree with them or don't want to argue the point, or where I disagree but feel like I've already made my point and listened to theirs.

Think about it, do you really want me to write another long post interspersing a bunch of quotes from you and my thoughts on them to show I'm listening? Imagine we're in a bar discussing it, and assume I've nodded approval here and there and scowled at you a few times, and let's move on.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 491051)

I'm not sure you have it right. And clearly I'm no expert, but do you think that there is a vaccuum because, say Afghanistan, isn't considered part of the international community and that leads to the tribalism you mentioned? Or is it because the ethnic and religious group identities are fundamentally more important to those groups of people such that the drawing of borders that defines Afghanistan as a country is and will always be meaningless?

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 491043)

I don't doubt for a moment the choice was based on survival. I just fear that we will all find out that, in the long run, they chose poorly. I see ISIS engaging in a killing spree that will make Assad look like a schoolyard bully by comparison. And I'm not just talking about a genocidal murdering of Kurds by the hundreds of thousands.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 491053)

I imagine we're in a bar, you called me a racist, threw a drink at me, and stormed off.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 491049)

OK, so my hypothesis here is that Islam is a symptom of the violent extremism you're describing rather than the cause -- i.e., that what you are describing is true in a bunch of countries that happen to be Islamic, is the result of factors other than their religion, and is expressed in an Islamic form because because such things often find a religious outlet and the religion in these countries happens to be Islam.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 491053)

I imagine we're in a bar, you called me a racist, threw a drink at me, and stormed off.