Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510587)

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510587)

Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510587)

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510587)

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 510589)

If you look at the US roster last night, there's this missing generation of players who should be in the prime of their careers. Yedlin is 24, and there are some younger players. There are a whole bunch who are past 30. Between them, you only had Altidore and Nagbe (27), Villafana (28) and Gonzalez (29).

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 510590)

That's what he was saying about it being a Pay to Play sport in this country, at $2500 a kid a year. I totally agree with you on this, and I think it's something that we need to look at from a federation level. Other countries have academies where they find talent and develop the hell out of it. Whatever Barcelona invested in Messi when he joined their academy at 12 or 13, they got back in spades.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510587)

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 510573)

About the shift among gun owners away from hunting.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 510563)

Yeah, like you've never fertilized a plant before....

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 510596)

I'm not sure it's just about money. I'd like to know where the parents engaged in this arms race find the time for it.

There are all of these helicopter sorts who appear to have nothing to do but take the kids to practice, to special coaching, and to watch and critique every game. And volunteer coach!

What do these people do for a living? Some are well off sorts with time to burn. But most are middle class to affluent sorts who seem to have magically found 30 hours in a day.

Some of this is jealousy at the fact I don't have the time, nor does my spouse. But some of it is also annoyance. Many of these people are making poor choices. Their kids are not good enough to get scholarships, they have perhaps too many kids, and their time might be better spent in a commercial/working endeavors which would better equip them to pay for the kids' college. I fear a lot of them will spend all these years collecting trophies that'll wind up in a dusty garage, while their kids later head off to college to collect debt, which will preclude them from participating positively in the economy.

I grasp the attraction of one's kid excelling in a sport, and that team participation schools one for later group participation in the workplace. But many of these parents go way too far, and they create an unhealthy arms race. And I think a lot of these parents need to understand, Reliving your youth through Junior is not reliving your youth. The school sports star phase of your ride through the mortal coil is Over. Assume the appropriate spectator position.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 510590)

That's what he was saying about it being a Pay to Play sport in this country, at $2500 a kid a year. I totally agree with you on this, and I think it's something that we need to look at from a federation level. Other countries have academies where they find talent and develop the hell out of it. Whatever Barcelona invested in Messi when he joined their academy at 12 or 13, they got back in spades.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510600)

I hear you. But, fuck. That's just the most selfish (from a national team perspective) approach to growing the game, no? Cherry pick talented kids and put them in an academy so we can have a great team? That leaves poor kids that aren't completely exceptional out in the cold still. These travel teams should be forced to provide a certain number of spots to kids who can't afford to pay. They should allow public schools to use their facilities. Providing coaching at public schools should be part of travel coaches' jobs. We should be investing in building smaller soccer fields in cities and reaching out to kids to train them and give them field time.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510600)

I hear you. But, fuck. That's just the most selfish (from a national team perspective) approach to growing the game, no? Cherry pick talented kids and put them in an academy so we can have a great team? That leaves poor kids that aren't completely exceptional out in the cold still. These travel teams should be forced to provide a certain number of spots to kids who can't afford to pay. They should allow public schools to use their facilities. Providing coaching at public schools should be part of travel coaches' jobs. We should be investing in building smaller soccer fields in cities and reaching out to kids to train them and give them field time.

TM

Originally Posted by soup sandwich (Post 510593)

So why spend all that money? I don't know what to say other than I enjoy it. I enjoy watching them play at a high level. I enjoy the long car rides and the conversations I have with them. That being said, I sometimes dream of an alternative reality wherein we sunk all that money into a beach house and we became one of those families that just went to the beach each weekend instead of driving all over for sports.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 510603)

My daughter plays travel soccer and basketball. But she also plays high school soccer and basketball. Both of her (public) high school teams are absolutely terrible. We have 3 travel players on the HS soccer team. They are so fucking advanced that playing with girls who are literally just learning the game is frustrating. And the powerhouse schools they play are the Catholic schools who have a dozen travel players. It's sickening.

My daughter absolutely loves playing for her school even though they frequently get murdered. There is school spirit, it helps with the social life obviously, and since she's so highly skilled (and I'm not bragging at all--that's just how it is when you've played travel for 10 years) she was one of the leaders on both teams as a freshman last year. All of that is great for her. We've told both travel teams who try to keep their players from playing other sports and playing for their schools to fuck off. She's been lucky that it hasn't affected her participation on either team. But that is not the norm and I think it's bullshit.

And what's crazy is that parents buy in to this one sport bullshit that these travel teams sell. If you ask college coaches what they're looking for, they always say they want a kid who has grown up playing multiple sports. They think differently, have much better footwork, understand how to move, etc. And yet parents force their kids into playing just one sport the whole year.

Everything sucks.

TM