Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Since he's not going to be prosecuted in office, you're saying that people who commit political crimes should just be able to get away with them? The remedy is impeachment while the President is in office, but why not prosecution afterwards? If you believe in the rule of law, it seems like you should have some faith in the rule of law.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

"The President pardoned ____. Bad President!" Has been played out for years. I really have no idea what this guy did, do you think the average Trump voter would? They're fucking morons. He could pardon El Chapo and not lose a vote.

The better question is "would a pardon make any of this fuzzy brained 3rd party voters come to their senses?" If only we knew someone we could ask.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

If he still thinks those states are his, 2016 was entirely a fluke and he has not a thimble's worth of grey matter between his ears.

I can't believe after the midterms he'd think those states are his. He is fucked in PA and WI.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

There is no way he's winning PA. He's going to get trounced.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I see a lot of corruption in his business endeavors, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on the corruption in office. It appears to be:

1. Having the govt pay for space in Trump buildings;
2. Emoluments issues (mostly, it seems, re: Trump DC hotel);
3. Getting his kids security passes;
4. Suborning lies about a Trump hotel development in Moscow;
5. $130k of campaign finance violations re: Stormy

Am I missing things? I must be.

2 is a real case, ongoing. But it's civil. 1 has already been vetted. It sounds sketchy, but it's legal. 3 is sketchy but legal. 4 is definitely illegal. Got him there. 5 is illegal, but really hard to prove and small potatoes.

I think the really fucked up stuff Trump has done predates the Presidency and involves possible money laundering through his projects. Those are serious crimes. But his post-election corruption looks like a lot of "meh." I'd say his risk is on the business side.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Post a poll or grow from what you thought in 2016.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I think he's saying we're about to normalize the prosecution of politics.

The fed crim code can be used to indict a person like Mother Theresa if a prosecutor feels a desire to so use it. And often that desire is political (or ambition).

Do we really want politicians leaning on prosecutors to send other politicians to jail more than they already do?

We need fewer prosecutions of all kinds in this country. That sort of thing should never be used as a political tool. If you believe in the rule of law, the idea that any man is in jail based on a selective prosecution (where no other person would be prosecuted) simply because he happens to be a high profile or politically useful target should disgust the shit out of you.

Some lady got 5 years in TX a year ago for accidentally voting without having properly registered as a felon. She was, wait for it... Black. And she was prosecuted for one reason and one reason only: To scare other minority voters.

It seems right to punish Trump post-office. And he probably deserves a lot of punishment for many things. But of the many things that characterize banana republics, having courts that are used as political tools is top five. And when that becomes even more commonplace, it won't be used on Trumps as much as it will be on people like that lady in TX.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

whiff


But srsly, he's fucked.

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I absolutely disagree.

You're not going to be able to divorce his other crimes from what he did to get into office. It will all be interrelated. And once we discover more evidence of him selling US policy for personal gain (gaining office or financial) or for assurances that info won't get out in order to protect himself, how the fuck do we walk away from that?

I understand not wanting to drag this country through what may appear to those of us who are completely ignorant and stupid to be political trials, but I think, once uncovered, the extent of the fuckery this man is engaged in will be overwhelming.

There needs to be actual evidence. I'm sure parties could force those out of office to go through endless investigation, but you think we're not already almost there when it comes to Republicans? That's no excuse for avoiding actually applying the fucking law.

If the level of criminality I think this asshole is engaged in is made public, it would be a crime not to go after him.

I fucking hope so.

TM

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Correct.

He absolutely does not see it that way.

TM

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I think they're something to be said for having a full reconciliation. That said, I'd like it to be very carefully insulated from politics. You need to have a prosecutor with a sterling reputation, an ability to play it by the book, and a political past that doesn't suggest he'd have a partisan axe to grind .... someone like, say, Robert Mueller.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Nope. There is an exception to that particular type whiff limited to you, and as long as Trump is prez. NTTAWWT


Dunno. This summer my neighbor had a garage sale and I wandered in, as one does. Do not know this particular, over educated lib family, but they had a few political buttons for sale. One was a Jill Stein "why pick the lesser of two evils?" button. For these people to advertise they had a hand in this shit means there has not been growth in the "OMG we fucked it up" department. I don't know 1 Trump voter who acknowledges it was a mistake. If the 3rd party people don't, how you getting to another result?

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

This Administration is rife with grifters. Corruption only comes to light when someone else in the Administration exposes it while jockeying for position. I think it's a safe bet that sunshine will turn up quite a bit more. One example: the Florida woman who owns a chain of brothels and who has been selling access to Trump.

Also, you are missing the issue with 2. The Emoluments Clause is about whether Trump should be allowed to accept facially legit payments for things like hotel use. Even if that's OK, do you doubt that there are people in the government who are using their position to encourage third parties to make those payments?

It's not clear to me if 3. is legal, either. It depend on how it happened. The law imposes a bunch of process requirements. Not clear that they were met. Also, clearly there was something in Jared's dealings that made national security officials uncomfortable with him being in the loop. What do you think it was? High possibility for corruption there.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

If someone breaks the law, and you prosecute, that's not (necessarily) selective prosecution or using prosecution as a political tool. We all have seen Mueller operate and understand that it's possibly to run a professional, unpoliticized investigation and prosecution. The fact that criminals will complain that they are being singled out does not mean that they are being singled out or are not criminals. Consider, for example, the prosecution of Dinesh D'Souza. He did what he did, and had no defense. So he got nailed. He complained that he was being singled out, but that was a load of crap, and the criminal justice system did its job. Floodgates were not opened.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I'm not sure if either of the commas you used were appropriate, but surely the use of both is not. When I post on the Detroit Board I do try and maintain a high standard of proper grammar and intellectual honesty given my high office there. We have all given up on you caring about the later, but as the admin, can you not at least try to respect the former?

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

There were three commas in my post and only one in the sentence you quoted, so I'm not sure if your use of the word "both" was appropriate, by which I mean you aren't making sense. Do try to keep up.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

FSelective prosecution is the most vile of practices. Few abuses degrade public faith in our Property Protection System more.

I know numerous people who got caught doing what Martha Stewart did with much larger dollars. Penalties, warnings, fines, and disgorgement was all they received. I’ve known and known of several individuals with six and even seven figure tax evasions who negotiated repayments in lieu of prosecution. Common theme? None were famous. None political.

How many people cut deals in the Swiss bank scandal a few years back? How about the Panama Papers?

D’Souza was a high profile scalp. That’d almost never happen to a nobody.

Prosecutorial discretion is one of the last few utterly unchecked powers. And it’s one of those most in need of aggressive oversight.

For further reading, do a news search on Jeffrey Epstein.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

A hand job joint madam involved in sex trafficking is gross and horrible, but how does that implicate Trump? He and Kraft sound like the dupes there. Are you suggesting mere proximity is proof Trump conspired with her in the ring? (I wonder if Massagegate is related to Pizzagate?)

On 3, if Trump broke a rule, then it was illegal. But from what I’ve read, he did not. What we know now is high ranking intel recommended against givin Kushner clearance and Trump overruled them, which is legal. And if high ranking intel looked into Kushner, it sounds to me like necessary vetting was performed.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

sorry, old man eyes. Saw 3. as 3,

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Are you suggesting that the possibility of Trump paying for (who are we kidding, receiving) a hand job at a massage parlor is something he should get a pass for? If Kraft is inviting her to meet the President and every other Republican, knowing she runs a fucking prostitution ring, that isn't significant? If the women involved were trafficked, we should cut any of these Johns a break? Your ability to jump past everything to "This was just a photo-op," is mind-boggling.

You are comparing a made-up conspiracy theory to an actual sex trafficking ring. Sometimes I think you're better than this, but then I read bullshit like this and remember you're not.

TM

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I would suggest that the sentencing guidelines are a part of this problem, because they prevent judges from counteracting the prosecution's discretion.

None of what you are saying is a reason to decline to bring a case against Trump.

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Wtf? Nobody’s suggesting he got a hand job from anyone in her ring. You made that up. This madam duped Kraft into getting her near Trump, and she then used that access to Trump (if any was granted other than that photo) to dupe people to pay her for her professed “access” to Trump.

Kraft is a pathetic old fool. Trump is a clown who can’t control access to the rooms in which he’s sitting at his own hotel.

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On 1, that is one of many fixes needed.

On 2, agreed with a caveat. Adder makes an important point. I’d add that we should not charge political opponents just because we can. It should only cover extreme circumstances.

Trump’s payoff for Stormy doesn’t warrant prosecution. If he made decisions because Putin told him to, that qualifies.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Josh Marshall:

It's less that this is going to be a huge scandal and more the strong suspicion that there is a lot more of this going on than is showing up in the press.

That's the most recent story. But since many of those involved were lying until quite recently about what happened, you can be suspicious about whether this story will hold.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I wasn't even thinking about the sex crimes. I was thinking that it is highly improbable that she has been selling access to Trump without his somehow getting his cut, which would be corrupt.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Is that the new term for it?

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Here's the thing, when you are a predator or a criminal, and hang out with other predators and criminals, there are going to be times when you are just hanging out with them and other times when you're hanging out with them to do your predator and criminal stuff.

Law enforcement has the difficult job of figuring out which is which, but there will be both dead ends and surprises when someone really gets to figuring out the whole Trump crime empire. It's possible that sometimes Trump is just playing golf with those mob bosses, sex traffickers, mercenaries, and grifters he hangs out with.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Trump's been hanging with criminal elements since his early days in NY. These are usually people he like to have around him.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I know of a half dozen cases brought against people making contributions through straws from back when I worked in politics, and I was only in it for a few years. It is an area that is actively policed.

D'Souza was caught red handed and lied about it, which dug his hole deeper and gave the prosecution good reason not to give him a pass. That said, he didn't get prison time and he got a fairly modest fine. I know at least one person who lost their house over a similar crime (this person used their employees as straws as well as a couple dummy names to make contributions in support of Paul Tsongas when he ran for President - the Tsongas campaign was horrified and cooperated, and he felt they should have instead been thanking him).

If you work on a political campaign and someone wants to see the candidate to give him a handful of contributions and then has a dozen money orders for $1000 each, it's time to call the feds.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I most definitely did not make that up. It is being investigated. And what you wrote is surely more plausible. But if you think it's a stretch that the guy who raw dogs porn stars attended this woman's happy ending spa before he became President and received a hand job, you are on an island by yourself.

TM

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Agreed. But if Kraft is getting hand jobs, who else in that circle is too?

TM

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It absolutely does, via impeachment.

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I hope the spa kept good records.

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Well, in fairness, development work does require exposure to some folks with slightly less than sterling reputations. Particularly in decades past.

But even assuming he likes to hang with goodfellas, a hand job magnate? WTF?

Then again, the couple people I know who are members at Mar a Lago are seriously cheesy and weird, so perhaps it's not unexpected.

Michael Wolfe should have done a book on that club rather than the White House. The shit that goes in in there must be amazing.

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And electronic, not a hard copy book

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

Um, we were both taking about criminal prosecution.

I'm not sure that's a high crime or misdemeanor, but I also can't be certain it isn't. Seems on the line.

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I want to see Epstein's records. He allegedly videotaped his parties. Trump and Prince Andrew attended a few.

That dude could hold a motherlode of dirt on serious scumbaggery by some seriously powerful men.

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

I totally agree that Trump has probably stopped at hand job joints as you and I might stop at Starbucks. (There's an Idiocracy tie-in there that's depressingly apt, btw.)

But in the spirit of Point/Counterpoint, Trump does seem to prefer playmates and porn stars. Karen McDougal isn't trading hand jobs at the local rub n tug. Nor is Stormy (for at least another five years). So maybe not?

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

He seems like a wherever-and-whenever-he-can-get-it, kind of guy, no? If Melania is at Mar-a-Lago, take a quick trip to the spa. If he's in Russia, send some prostitutes to his room. If he's at an event with a porn star, see if he can hook that up. If he's near a teen pageant dressing room, get in there and watch them undress. If it's just a normal woman, "move on 'em like a bitch" and "grab 'em by the pussy."

TM

Re: Downward Departures for Gout
 

A family member of mine was in a small room with Trump within the past year. And got a selfie! What am I doing humping it in biz development? I'm leaving cash on the table!