Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524421)

You might've done better to pass judgment on my spelling it with an "e." There you'd have drawn blood.

Your second point was something I almost pre-empted in my post, because I knew (I knew it) that's where you were headed. That race is an omnipresent fact does not mean all statements have racist components. And also, Diangelo took assiduous pains to focus on racism toward blacks. I won't say her arguments are directed exclusively to racism against blacks in America, because I don't think that's true. But what I am certain is true is that White Fragility cannot be applied to white/Chinese relations in the exact same way it applies to white/black relations. Blacks in America sit in a unique position. The Chinese were treated horribly during railroad building booms, but it's not the same thing. The racism applied to black people here is not the same as xenophobia applied to the Chinese.

Also, when Diangelo says that racism touches all things, she does not say it controls all things. She's saying it's in there to an extent, always a component. But how big? Could be huge. Could be small. It depends on the situation. You're arguing that the entirety of the criticisms of some Chinese goods accrue from racism. In your bizarre reasoning, no one can criticize Chinese goods (or goods from any country, really) on a basis other than, or that does not include in overwhelming amount, racist bias. That's not a sustainable argument. You're taking Diangelo's constructs and running them to absurd ends.

I don't think highly of Chinese appliances. This is not me being racist. This is me criticizing the country that makes most of the appliances I am compelled to buy. I honestly don't know how not to criticize the Chinese when critiquing appliances. They make almost everything!

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524423)

This is strange to say, but Kauai and Maui remain my favorite food cities. (I've not been to SF in ages, and I know I'm missing out.) On the desert side of Kauai where no one travels there seems to be nothing but poke huts. The best raw seafood I've had was in dirty hut on the roadside in Kauai, where I wondered if I wasn't trifling with some form of food poisoning, but it was amazing. Still the best I've had -- better than toro at Bond Street, which is a solid second best. (Don't recall Morimoto... only the upstairs in Philly, after many drinks.)

My in laws and my best friend recommend St. Petersburg. Hermitage is supposed to be amazing.

I think I'm in Athens next year. (I don't book the trips, I just follow as led.) I imagine the Greek diet will suit me well, given I eat seafood about five days a week as it is.

Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 524387)

Blows all these places out of the motherfracking water. They know how to do pasta, pizza. They do NOT PLAY.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524420)

DC is the best eclectic food town, IMO. You can get everything. I've no frame of comparison, but have been told the Ethiopian food there is world class. Makes sense given the huge Ethiopian population there.

Foreign food = Possibly the best argument in favor of more immigration. You'll never see the "Puritan Diet" as a trend. It'd render one suicidal.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 524410)

You should learn how to manage these types of discussions. When Sebby posts something that shows his eyes have been opened to shit I've been hammering away at for years, why are pushing him on something that is most likely not meant to be racist. You know what he means.

I understand that you are an ally, but let me tell you, from a lifetime of experience when it comes to broaching this subject with white people, you need to pick your battles. If you point out everything, all the time, you will get tuned right the fuck out.

TM

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 524428)

Just want to jump in to let you know that Halle Berry did something interesting today.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524411)

I realized reading Diangelo’s direct, lucid, and dryly logical argument that I didn’t really have an issue with her positions. How could I? Logic is logic. Her analyses were laid out like mathematical proofs. Even if I suspected her of bias, which I didn’t, her points would nevertheless be largely irrefutable.

I realized I was arguing most with people like Adder. He’s not really an ally. He’s biased, extremely, toward appearing exceptionally virtuous in matters regarding race, sex, LGBTQ, etc. But unlike Diangelo, who carefully and rigorously explains her definition of racism in the United States, Adder offers no thinking. He just reflexively labels anything he can some form of bigotry or prejudice.

He’s the embodiment of the hammer seeing only nails analogy.

This is not thoughtful, nor is it rigorous. To immediately cite bigotry as the cause of all criticisms one hears about foreign products is lazy, and its grandstanding. And he should not be considered a credible ally because it is largely that affirmation that he seeks. He wants to be the dutiful finder of bigotry everywhere, and so his move, anytime he sees even the thinnest pretext to do so is to, in a Javert fashion, accuse the speaker of bigotry.

He means well, but in this regard he’s the chatboard equivalent of an “unreliable narrator.” And to the extent the behavior of him and the many like him offends an independent like me, well, imagine its impact on Biden voters, and Trump voters with some buyer’s remorse. “Allies” like Adder, behaving as they do en masse, are what can and indeed may likely lose the Ds the middle, and consequently lose them the election.

And it won’t be because the middle is fragile. Indeed, the whites in the middle are fragile. But they can also spot grandstanding. And that really turns off people.

I honestly don’t think Adder realizes how transparent he is. But he has no business claiming Diangelo as support. She wrote an argument. He’s entirely Pavlovian. Dangle an opening for his favorite accusation (pick whatever form of bigotry he can shoehorn into the facts at issue) and he never fails to provide it.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 524413)

Ehh, at the risk of “whitesplainin” the main lesson of that book is don’t think you are in a position to “whitesplain,” to me at least, everything up to her getting called out was prologue- meaning it is all in the execution and day to day living.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524421)

Your second point was something I almost pre-empted in my post, because I knew (I knew it) that's where you were headed. That race is an omnipresent fact does not mean all statements have racist components. And also, Diangelo took assiduous pains to focus on racism toward blacks. I won't say her arguments are directed exclusively to racism against blacks in America, because I don't think that's true. But what I am certain is true is that White Fragility cannot be applied to white/Chinese relations in the exact same way it applies to white/black relations. Blacks in America sit in a unique position. The Chinese were treated horribly during railroad building booms, but it's not the same thing. The racism applied to black people here is not the same as xenophobia applied to the Chinese.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 524421)

Also, when Diangelo says that racism touches all things, she does not say it controls all things. She's saying it's in there to an extent, always a component. But how big? Could be huge. Could be small. It depends on the situation. You're arguing that the entirety of the criticisms of some Chinese goods accrue from racism. In your bizarre reasoning, no one can criticize Chinese goods (or goods from any country, really) on a basis other than, or that does not include in overwhelming amount, racist bias. That's not a sustainable argument. You're taking Diangelo's constructs and running them to absurd ends.

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 524428)

Just want to jump in to let you know that Halle Berry did something interesting today.

Originally Posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone (Post 524429)

Did she have the extra toe removed?

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 524433)

Was it the wet T shot?

TM

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 524435)

Yes. I too am pro No Bra Club.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 524431)

I've read this "sentence" many times and I have no clue what you're trying to say.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 524430)

I think you have mistaken my last post as some sort of agreement with you. Adder is most definitely an ally. He clearly cares about these issues, is thoughtful, and is vocal about his support. I am talking strategy with him.

TM