Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm actually thinking about it far more carefully than you are. I was describing bias based on appearance. The blind, uh, don't see. But yes, they can be biased.

Okay. But that doesn't prove everyone is racist. Now you're admitting you're crafting a narrative to cause people to do things.

Now you're really proving my point. It isn't about facts. It's about adjusting others' behavior.

There are. And you can tell me that, honestly. Why instead say everyone is racist? And why insist that's true where you're clearly admitting that's not offered as a provable or proven fact but as device to modify people's behavior? Do you not understand how this transparently manipulative stuff hobbles your ability to reach the goals you seek?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No, I'm describing reality, which you seem dead-set to deny, because you use a word in a weirdly idiosyncratic way that you somehow also believe is universal and undeniable.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

"Involved" is a whale net. What does that even mean?

I cannot state that "just about everyone" is racist any more than I can prove "everyone is racist" because there's no way to prove either. I'd be talking out my ass as there's no way to get the data. (Unless I use Adder's goofy definition where everyone everywhere is racist toward everyone else.)

But I can look at systems and see that they create racist results and appear to be geared to do so. That data is voluminous.

The system and the individual are Two Different Things. You are never going to make them one because that is impossible. That is the fundamental flaw in identity politics that precludes it from getting a significant foothold.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

When you say "reality," I agree with you. It is true, and real, that you are not being factual, but instead saying something that is not factual to try to make people behave a certain way.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Suffice it to say that we fundamentally disagree about whether it is easier to convince people that racist systems or individual biases exist.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You can't read, can you? I stopped using the word "racist." I asked you a question that didn't use the word. Without using the word "racist," just answer what I asked you: Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Preet Bharara interview:

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I can’t say just about everyone is involved in systemic discrimination. There’s no way to make that leap. Everyone is a huge group. We could find a small percentage of everyone is responsible. We could find roughly half of everyone is responsible.

I’m avoiding using involved because that’s a broad term that could be used to assert everyone within the system is “involved” in discrimination simply because they deal with or work within the system. Using that measure, the entire population of the world from countries which deal with the US is involved in systemic discrimination.

I am comfortable stating that a significant portion of the US population is responsible for perpetuating systemic discrimination. I think a fair reading of available facts and data allows that. How significant? I don’t know. That’s the argument of degree I previously referenced.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

So now you are that much closer to understanding. You asked how the broad definition of racism could be useful. Here's the answer. We live in a racist society. Pretty much everyone in that society, without regard to individual views and attitudes, is involved in some way in perpetuating that racism. The broad definition of "racist" captures this, at the cost of blurring distinctions between individual attitudes that you find really important. In particular, you think it's really important to distinguish between people who are consciously and intentionally bigoted, and everyone else.

I don't disagree that your distinction has some value, but I don't think it has as much value as you do. (Partly because the word "bigot" has the meaning you want for "racist.") And you don't seem to have any other word to use to capture that sense in which everyone is complicit.

I will say this: If everyone is a "racist" then calling someone a "racist" becomes tautological, not particularly descriptive. That supports an intuition that the narrower sense of the word is more useful. On the other hand, using "racist" to describe actions or things or institutions that fit the broader sense is quite valuable, because that stuff is all around us and there really isn't another good way to say that. So that is very descriptive. Of course, if one isn't really concerned at all with that sort of thing, one doesn't need a word for it. Eskimos had lots of words for snow, but none for structured derivatives, or so I've heard.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don’t disagree the broad definition seems necessary. But I do not think it is the proper expression of what you’re describing. Systemic racism is a different animal than individual racism. You and I and everyone else in this country live within a racist system. That system is filled with structures which are designed to and in fact perpetuate racism. The same cannot be said of every person or just about every person living within that system. Each person must be assessed individually.

We can say, for example, the US justice system is a racist system. But we cannot extrapolate from there that all justice systems are racist. And that is comparing apples to apples. To extrapolate from the fact that the US justice system is racist, or even that numerous US institutions are racist, and therefore all or nearly all US citizens are racist is comparing apples and grains of sand. The system is not the individual any more than the individual is the system. (This is one of the axioms that has kept us from war with Iran, a country of diverse people with diverse views run by an indefensible system.)

I don’t think any fair person can or should label all or most of the citizens of a nation with a description that fits its institutions generally. And I also do not think it needs to be done. It’s quite enough, and effective, to state that a society is run by racist systems decent men would seek to fix. Shaming individuals as racists using a definition that only fits systems will not cure the apathy this device seeks to eradicate.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't think anyone said the point is to shame everyone, but if the utmost concern is to avoid making anyone uncomfortable, what you say makes total sense.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Then why use the accusation on an individual level when it doesn’t fit?

The utmost concern is paring racism as effectively as possible. Using terms where they don’t fit and appear to used disingenuously is the opposite of effective.

It’s been argued Trump is largely a reaction to political correctness. I don’t agree, but if we assume I’m wrong and that’s right, why would one double down on using terms in a manner that invites such backlash where he could easily use accurate, factual statements which cannot be refuted to make his claims?

Post not about racism
 

More, though not much, about Wilkie Farr's cheater - https://cornellsun.com/2019/03/13/go...ed-with-fraud/

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Because it isn't an "accusation."

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

If you assume that the word means only what you say, then that question makes sense. For just a second, try to pretend that the word means what others have suggested, in which case your question is incoherent.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Or try this for fun. When I use the word "racist," assume that I am using a different word "rracist," which includes the meaning you ascribe to "racist" but also has the broader meaning I've suggested. Spelled the same because I forgot the second "r" but otherwise a different word meaning what you think "racist" doesn't mean. Try that and let's see how it works.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Are yo suggesting he's some kind of rrascist?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think this is a beautiful post and an excellent idea. I will try to employ it when it comes to my own colorism.

And I'm very sorry to hear about your son's addiction. I hope both he and the family find the strength to get through it.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm going to try again, because I think you're making progress.

After reading your analysis, I think you need to add another category.

1. Institutional Racism
2. Intentionally Evil Personal Racism
3. Lower Level Racism

I think you have moved away from only acknowledging Intentionally Evil Personal Racism, which I appreciate, but you're throwing everything else into category 1. And I don't think you're wrong to say that people need to learn about how Institutional Racism is structural, permeates society, and contributes to the success of some to the active detriment of others.

So, moving on...if you acknowledge unconscious and confirmation-type biases exist (and I think they often contribute to the perpetuation of Institutional Racism even though they aren't the only factors), you're only a step away from acknowledging the grey area between Intentionally Evil Personal Racism and the state of having zero racism whatsoever (which I think you think is colorblindness, even though it is not--but let's not deal with that here).

Given the society in which we live and the value inherent in one's skin in this country, I don't think anyone is free from some level of racism. Whether you feel uncomfortable when you see a dark-skinned man walking your way or your prefer women or men with European features, we all carry it. We just carry it at different levels. Carrying it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. Recognizing and actually acknowledging that it exists in you is what is almost impossible. And White Fragility addresses that issue and I think Hank's post does as well.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This is your major problem. If you can't hear someone when they say something you've done is racist and all you hear is someone calling you a racist and thus, a bad person, you have taken a word that has a complex meaning and rendered it useless. If (for one example), when it comes to black women, you think only like light-skinned black women with European features are attractive, that is objectively racist. I should be able to say that to you without you shutting down and telling me how you can't control who you're attracted to or that you have black friends or that race never entered into your head or that you can't be racist because you had a black girlfriend. The fact that you have been conditioned to prefer a European beauty ideal doesn't make you Steve King. But it is indeed racist.

Again, this paragraph shows that you. do. not. listen.

The concept of White Fragility isn't meant to be a fucking insult. It means when it comes to this specific topic, because applying the term "racism" to any of your actions carries with it the idea that you are a bad person, you no longer listen to why whatever action at issue is wrong or hurtful (even if it is what I referred to in the previous email as Low Level Racism). Your sole focus is proving that you are not a bad person. And since we all have to deal with that, we never get back to why that initial action is wrong and how you can correct it.

I would like to explain to people I've come across who have said, "She's cute for a black girl," why that is racist. It's clearly not the same as saying, "Niggers disgust me." But if I can't even talk to them about the former they are fucking fragile--meaning, their feelings take over a conversation in which they can be educated. That's not meant to be an insult.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Jesus fucking Christ. You are only looking for examples of intentional, evil racism. He could list a thousand other things that do not fall into this category and you would either shoo them away or deny them.

I can tell you for a fucking fact that you have felt uncomfortable because a dark-skinned black man was walking toward you.

I am sure you have assumed someone of color was an employee when they were not.

I would bet a ton of money that you've been in a situation in which there has been a white person and a person of color and you assumed the white person was in charge.

Since none of us watch your every move we can't give you specific examples of what you do regularly that's racist. But going on the shit you post here (i.e., you think colorblindness is achievable and desirable), I think it's safe to say you, like everyone else, do racist shit. The point you need to get through your thick fucking skull is that unintentional racist shit constitutes racism too. It's just a different level. Jesus fucking Christ, man.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

https://media0.giphy.com/media/VrSZDlpRaHYje/giphy.gif

Remember when I said you were close to getting it? Never mind. You are fucking hopeless.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

So you've redefined the word "racism," to only include that which is intentional--intended to harm. Therefore, in your numb skull, any attempt to apply the word to unintentional acts or even to apply it with any kind of degree or nuance is wrong and impossible. This is fucking stupid. The fact that you keep repeating your stupidity does not serve as an effective argument.

You are an asshole who has had this explained to you a number of times. You are not born a racist. But if you are born into a racist society, you internalize racism at a very young age. I provided you the studies. Hell, the fucking Doll Study* would help any halfway intelligent person understand the idea. These are not difficult concepts to understand.

TM

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZryE2bqwdk

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yes, jackass. This is exactly what everyone is saying. You don't get it because when you read your own words above, all you see is:

"You're effectively saying that to allow a person's race to impact your bias toward the person renders one an evil, intentional racist. This would make it impossible to not be a very mean, horrible racist in regard to anyone of any race (unless you were blind). One would necessarily be a terrible, evil racist toward all races."

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

If Sebby had been around for the early days of the church, I am pretty sure he would have objected to shaming everyone with the doctrine of original sin. Too negative. Sure there's a lot of evil in the world, but it's not productive to suggest that people aren't as innocent as the driven snow.

Come to think of it, it's odd that there are so many Christians who are doctrinally OK with the suggestion that man is fallen in so many other ways, but who can't handle that thought specifically about race. Snowflakes indeed.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

If everyone everywhere is racist toward every race, which is the definition you’re offering, then the word has no real meaning. I honestly, truly, do not care what anyone thinks, and I do not have concern for people feeling bad about being called racists. The problem isn’t that your definition is an insult or accusation. I long ago grasped that argument. It’s that you’ve now create a word indistinguishable from “biased.” The word doesn’t mean anything anymore. You’re just saying everyone is biased. Seems kind of dumb, given people are all biased toward others based on appearance and background.

Italians, Irish, Spanish, Korean... Everybody has some bias toward everyone based on background. I understand your point. You’re missing mine. When everyone’s racist, no one’s racist.

ETA: I also will never accept the logic that the society and the invididual are indistinguishable. I’ll accept there’s substantial imprinting, of course, but there’s no way to throw human agency so entirely out the window.

ETA2: A definition that would also allow a white person to call a black person in this country a racist also strikes me too broad. And that is the logical extension of the definition offered. (You’ll try to carve around it, but it’s inescapable.)

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude, it’s the language issue. If you want to use racist to describe the whole of humanity, have at it.

It’s just kind of... strange. If a descriptive covers every living human, what distinguishing value does it have? I guess a middlebrow thinker would assume there’s a powerful value in recognizing that all men are biased regarding race. But that’s known already. It’s one of a million things we all process about each other.

Call me crazy, but I don’t care much about the heuristic running in my head that causes me to have a knee jerk opinion based on someone’s background. It’s terribly uninteresting. Of importance is the mechanism one uses to avoid its use as much as he can.

But ymmv. Much about this discussion has struck me as incredibly strange. But I guess I’m a racist. Which I gather is okay? Because we’re all racists.

Somewhere Safire is turning. (Don’t bother with the lecture on how words change over time, Ty. It’s noted.)

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You have not. That is clear from absolutely everything you write.

The word most definitely has a meaning. Just because it's more expansive than terms like "bigot" does not render it useless.

Many words are expansive and can be applied with nuance. If, as you say you got a long time ago, you understand the word isn't pejorative in every instance, then why is it so hard to understand that no one is going around saying, "Every person is a racist!" even if technically that is true. The point is an act is or isn't racist, regardless of intention. It can be a grand act or a minor act. All anyone is saying is that we all carry some racism with us.

When someone asks my wife to take their coat while we're waiting for a table at a restaurant, that person has done something racist. If you're telling me that I can't describe that unintentional act as racism (and/or sexism, I suppose), then the word truly has no meaning.

No. I'm not missing your point. Everyone has bias, that's true. Everyone has sexist tendencies too. The point is to make an effort to minimize them as best you can. And limiting the definition to acts requiring bad intent makes no sense when trying to achieve that end.

No one is making this argument.

I won't get into the distinction between racism and race prejudice. But just because black people harbor biases as well doesn't somehow render the concept pointless.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Of course I’ve been in a couple of those situations and had thoughts like that. And those are racist thoughts.

But a definition of racism that includes every biased thought that enters anyone’s head based on perception of another’s race is so broad it becomes meaningless. I’ve bristled at perceptions people have of me based on looks and my name. Can I call them racist? I fear lots of batshit crazy white people we see in this backwash state. (There are tons of angry white dudes.). Am I racist to avoid them? Can I be racist toward what’s technically my own race? This stuff gets elliptical pretty quickly.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You simultaneously say that the broad definition of racism is meaningless and that it is too strong an accusation to make about most people. It can't be both. You're like the guy who complains that food is inedible and the portions are too small. Pick one.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude, that's all racism is. Racist thoughts and acts influenced by those thoughts. Jesus.

No. It's not. That's literally what racism is.

No. But only because those perceptions were based on your name and looks, not your race.

Why are you avoiding them? Are you avoiding specific people based on their beliefs and actions? Or are you saying that there are degrees of racism and you have found that white people in certain areas are more racist? Is your avoidance based on their race or your judgment of who they are based on where they live or how they look?

Most people who are educated in race issues distinguish between racism and race prejudice. Racism is widely considered to be something that carries with it the power of racist society and its racist institutions. Race prejudice is more likely what you're describing.

White Fragility. Read the fucking book. So much of this shit is covered. You can disagree with every word as you read it if you want. Just fucking read it.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

They’re complimentary. Not at all mutually exclusive. But your analogy is funny and I’m stealing for use where it’s apt.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It’s a Woody Allen joke that even Woody stole.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No, it is indistinguishable from “biased based on race,” which, bingo, is what the word “racist” means.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

STP, my friend.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Get a room.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I understand that you are color blind and that I have a great jump shot, but it was TM's post he need to S to and TP.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

First, the back and forth I've had with TM is much more expansive than what you and I had, so do not assume this is responsive at all to him.

This is addressed to you alone. It's kind of abstract, but stick with me:

-All people are inherently biased in regard to almost all stimuli they see.
-This includes appearance, voice, dress, almost anything.
-People are bombarded with stereotypes of others from birth (from media, from family, from friends, etc.).
-People also develop their own biases from past experiences with people (generalizing that all of a group behaves a certain way based on interaction with single member of group).
-There are a million heuristics that your brain uses to pre-judge people, things, and situations in the moment (it's an evolutionary survival mechanism).
-From an evolutionary perspective, you cannot help but be biased in some regard toward anything you encounter (unless it's something entirely unlike anything you've had any exposure to in the past).

-Using these facts, everyone is indeed racist, as you cannot possibly avoid taking race into account in some regard, positive, negative, or neutral, when you encounter a person.
-This necessarily means everyone is biased toward all other races and even his own.
-It also means we're classist, sexist, regionalist, nationalist, etc., because we all have kneejerk biases toward all people based on what we know about their background.

-If we adopt your position that all men are racists because it's impossible not to be racist (which is true within that definition) aren't we just lumping race into a large bucket of other stimuli in response to which people develop biases?

I'm not arguing or playing a game here. Perhaps you see where I'm going, perhaps not. Racism as a historical phenomenon in the US is unique. It's historically been aimed at one group. How do you not dilute that unique definition by using the expansive definition that racism includes "any instance in which you have developed a bias against another based on his race." It seems like there need to be sub-definitions of racism, one of which would be "Anti-Black Racism," which would cover the unique societal elements of that particular variant we've had here.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm guessing their probable beliefs and actions in part based on their race. They're white, and facets of their physical appearance and their facial expressions indicate potential for aggressive and impulsive behavior. You learn to spot them when traveling through rural locales (I drive a lot).

I think assortative mating is creating a lot of white people in dire circumstances who look a lot alike. It's skin tone, posture, eyes, and a mixture of features that cause the reptile brain in my head to say, High chance of aggression, possible drug addict. Avoid. I'm not the only one who's registered this phenomenon going on in his head.

That's a distinction I think fixes the confusion. This was a lot of my problem with Adder's definition. When you add the power component to Racism, I think you necessarily grab its most pernicious element. Race prejudice is almost impossible to eradicate as people will always default to stereotypes on some level (Kahnemann can speak to that). Racism as a system in which a race is targeted and marginalized is curable.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

1. If so, so what?

2. I mean, sure, if you just want to ignore history.

And yes, you provided those answers in what came next. I'm just don't see the problem you're seeing. The history (and present) of anti-black racism is different from racism or bias against other groups. It also has a lot in common with racism against, for example, native and Asian people too, especially looking into the past.

As a bit of a tangent, some local historians have been looking back on restrictive covenants in deeds in Minneapolis. I helped look some of them in via their online crowdsource project. The language used was fascinating, seeming to begin with "no negroes" and expand out other groups (e.g., Jews, moslems, turkmen, and other anachronistic terms I can't remember right now).