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Gattigap 07-23-2012 11:15 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 470704)
Who gives a shit how many total wins a school has besides only the most rabid fans?

TM

Though I'd never guessed this to be possible, I agree with both you and Atticus here.

Like you, I think the whole concept of vacating wins is kinda stupid, and like Atticus, I find the practice nonsensical. It presupposes a world in which we all go to the record books daily. Who follows that shit? The NCAA? Fuck you, NCAA.

Hank Chinaski 07-23-2012 11:17 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 470706)
I dunno. It seems to me like vacating wins isn't a way of saying "You would have lost" -- even with ineligible players, who's to say that? -- but rather that the game was flawed from a fairness perspective. Saying Paterno's recruiting would have suffered is a bit too attenuated for me. Every NCAA violation has a potential recruiting effect. Is vacating wins a first-line punishment as a general matter?

It's not that it seems excessive. I was okay with the death penalty. It's that this particular punishment has little logical relationship to the crime.

I can't imagine the linebacker from 2000-2004 gives a big shit about "losing" the wins. Paterno was the winningest coach in history, now he isn't. That penalty speaks loud to every coach in every school, and it doesn't impact anyone other than Paterno.

Pretty Little Flower 07-23-2012 11:25 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gattigap (Post 470707)
Who follows that shit? The NCAA? Fuck you, NCAA.

Oooooooh shit! It's ON now! BOO-YAH! Damn. Let's just say that this is one of those times that I'm pretty fucking happy I am not the NCAA.

ThurgreedMarshall 07-23-2012 11:38 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gattigap (Post 470707)
Though I'd never guessed this to be possible, I agree with both you and Atticus here.

Like you, I think the whole concept of vacating wins is kinda stupid, and like Atticus, I find the practice nonsensical. It presupposes a world in which we all go to the record books daily. Who follows that shit? The NCAA? Fuck you, NCAA.

Punishes Paterno. Fuck you, Paterno.

TM

Gattigap 07-23-2012 11:44 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 470710)
Punishes Paterno. Fuck you, Paterno.

TM

He's dead, but OK. I get that. I also get that PSU can no longer say they had the winningest coach ever. That benefit seems more remote to me -- once Paterno's gone, will that influence recruits? - but I guess that's a useful punishment as well.

ThurgreedMarshall 07-23-2012 11:46 AM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gattigap (Post 470711)
He's dead, but OK. I get that. I also get that PSU can no longer say they had the winningest coach ever. That benefit seems more remote to me -- once Paterno's gone, will that influence recruits? - but I guess that's a useful punishment as well.

It might. Better yet, I think it keeps big time coaches who want a clean legacy (and credit for all their wins) in line for the future.

And I'm not too good to appreciate a good pissing on a dead man's grave.

TM

Shape Shifter 07-23-2012 12:31 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 470652)
But I still don't think the players should suffer the death penalty for the coaches' and administration's actions. That seems unfair to kids who probably thought they were joining a uniquely ethical program, and did nothing wrong.

I'm not really sure where I fall on this issue overall because a large part of me believes the NCAA should stick to what it pays lip service to doing best, creating a level playing field in college athletics.

However, I've never really bought this argument. Why should athletes be any different from the rest of us who suffer the consequences for the actions of others? I worked for a company that went bankrupt, I had jack shit to do with it, but my career and those of my colleagues suffered because of us, and I don't remember anyone asking investigators to take it easy on the company because of the potential harm to our careers. For that matter, I had some pretty tough times following the economic collapse of '08, and I sure as fuck wasn't bundling any mortgages or gambling on credit default swaps.

I find it telling that this argument seems to be made only when it comes to mens football and basketball, sports with potentially lucrative post-collegiate possibilities. Athletes facing this situation in non-revenue sports just transfer somewhere else, sit for a year, and then move on, and nobody gives a crap.

Worrying about the post-collegiate careers of the very small percentage of athletes on the team who can go pro, while ignoring far larger harms to society, is completely absurd. It's a position insulated from the reality that everyone else faces.

Sidd Finch 07-23-2012 01:06 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 470708)
I can't imagine the linebacker from 2000-2004 gives a big shit about "losing" the wins. Paterno was the winningest coach in history, now he isn't. That penalty speaks loud to every coach in every school, and it doesn't impact anyone other than Paterno.

I..... <cough, cough>..... I...... <gag, sputter>..... I agree with Hank.

Flinty_McFlint 07-23-2012 01:11 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 470712)
It might. Better yet, I think it keeps big time coaches who want a clean legacy (and credit for all their wins) in line for the future.

And I'm not too good to appreciate a good pissing on a dead man's grave.

TM

The other real tragedy of this is that the little bastard died before he could see his reputation and legacy fucked in front of him. He died thinking he was a good person. It's small comfort seeing his family get to suffer the shame, though it is somewhat entertaining since they keep trying to interject when they should just shut the hell up, retreat to the shadows and keep counting their millions. I would propose that some of the sixty million be used to bring Joe back to life and hooked up to nonstop media coverage of his legacy in tatters.

Shape Shifter 07-23-2012 01:12 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 470708)
I can't imagine the linebacker from 2000-2004 gives a big shit about "losing" the wins. Paterno was the winningest coach in history, now he isn't. That penalty speaks loud to every coach in every school, and it doesn't impact anyone other than Paterno.

I'm sure it's a satisfying result for Bobby Bowden.

Atticus Grinch 07-23-2012 01:20 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 470708)
I can't imagine the linebacker from 2000-2004 gives a big shit about "losing" the wins. Paterno was the winningest coach in history, now he isn't. That penalty speaks loud to every coach in every school, and it doesn't impact anyone other than Paterno.

All right, I concede. Although I absolutely hate airbrush-the-history-books solutions -- they smack of Soviet techniques -- I see how it's a guided missile FU to Paterno in this particular case.

Atticus Grinch 07-23-2012 01:25 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shape Shifter (Post 470716)
I'm sure it's a satisfying result for Bobby Bowden.

Yeah, but it comes with a distasteful asterisk that everyone will remember.

Brown University just renamed one of its student athlete awards which until recently was called the Paterno Award. This made perfect sense because what college wants its best graduates' résumés to call child rape to mind? Makes for awkward job interviews.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 07-23-2012 01:47 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shape Shifter (Post 470716)
I'm sure it's a satisfying result for Bobby Bowden.

… speaking of people who should have some wins vacated.

Shape Shifter 07-23-2012 02:07 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) (Post 470719)
… speaking of people who should have some wins vacated.

No doubt.

I really, really enjoy college football, but it is getting harder and harder for me because it is oozingly corrupt, and seems content with being that way as long as the money keeps pouring in.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 07-23-2012 02:42 PM

Re: Paterno and Penn State
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shape Shifter (Post 470720)
No doubt.

I really, really enjoy college football, but it is getting harder and harder for me because it is oozingly corrupt, and seems content with being that way as long as the money keeps pouring in.

This is why I've redirected my focus to college foosball.


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