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-   -   The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word! (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=853)

Hank Chinaski 07-07-2010 11:13 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 427947)
I think that a lot of writers have that fear, and it ends up lilly-whitifying popular culture, because most writers in hollywood tend to be white. To watch California on television, you'd think that there wasn't a Hispanic within a 500 mile radius. Used to bug the shit out of me in both Buffy (set more or less in the Santa Barbara area) and Angel (set in Los Angeles). I remember reading some interview with a writer* fretting about the issue but being too afraid to do anything about it because he was afraid to get it "wrong." The solution, of course, is to hire Hispanic writers. Not because of any affirmative action bullshit, but because clearly their perspective is desperately needed.

*Can't remember which one. Pretty sure it wasn't Whedon. May have been Fury or Minear.

seinfeld, set in NYC? although eventually touched on it lightly with George's boss and his "friend" the exterminator.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-07-2010 11:17 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 427944)
Why wouldn't the firm want Y to boost their diversity numbers in the associate ranks? They can always make sure he doesn't make partner if they don't feel he "fits in." It seems to work for them when it comes to their female associates.

The chair of the hiring committee at my olde shoppe used to argue for boosting diversity numbers. He's the only one I've heard make the argument in an actual hiring situation, where it came down to X versus Y. Otherwise, I've always find people forget about the diversity numbers when it comes down to bankers son versus teamster's daughter. Unless the teamster's daughter is a scratch golfer or the teamster's son has a good jump shot. YMMV, and I'm pretty cynical about the process.

Of course, Olde Hiring Committee Chair also decided to give a call back to Miss Texas despite qualifications the rest of us found laughable. He still owes me that 1/2 hour of my life.

Yes, hire but not promote seems to have a particularly big impact on women in firms. I always thought it was the difficulty of finding mentors, but I've mentored a couple women and not been successful in getting them promoted. Probably just the wrong mentor...

patentparanyc 07-07-2010 11:27 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 427949)
The chair of the hiring committee at my olde shoppe used to argue for boosting diversity numbers. He's the only one I've heard make the argument in an actual hiring situation, where it came down to X versus Y. Otherwise, I've always find people forget about the diversity numbers when it comes down to bankers son versus teamster's daughter. Unless the teamster's daughter is a scratch golfer or the teamster's son has a good jump shot. YMMV, and I'm pretty cynical about the process.

Of course, Olde Hiring Committee Chair also decided to give a call back to Miss Texas despite qualifications the rest of us found laughable. He still owes me that 1/2 hour of my life.

Yes, hire but not promote seems to have a particularly big impact on women in firms. I always thought it was the difficulty of finding mentors, but I've mentored a couple women and not been successful in getting them promoted. Probably just the wrong mentor...

it depends on firm, and region. some firms are known for the good old boy, country club trust fund environment and some are known similar to Bear was known on the street to hire young, hungry poor and super smart and they battle. It is often said people would rather hire a motivated, incentivized individual from Brooklyn Law or St. John's than someone that feels entititled and doesn't want to work.

this is a huge pet peeve of mine. often it is who you know. I see it all the time, letters of recommendation from alumni etc. children not of money don't have access to connections like that. the playing field is not level

also: the last airbender

http://www.racebending.com/v3/act/pledge/

Hank Chinaski 07-07-2010 11:37 AM

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5360134

Bosh plus Wade is not enough anymore is it? But maybe it forces LeBron to give Miami better consideration?

Again, if I'm D Wade I really don't want to be on LJ's team. unless they change the rules to allow two balls.

Sidd Finch 07-07-2010 11:41 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 427948)
seinfeld, set in NYC? although eventually touched on it lightly with George's boss and his "friend" the exterminator.

You don't remember The Cookie?

(Why I remember it, I can't say. I was never particularly into that show; I thought it was good but seriously overrated.)

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) 07-07-2010 11:42 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 427949)

Of course, Olde Hiring Committee Chair also decided to give a call back to Miss Texas despite qualifications the rest of us found laughable. He still owes me that 1/2 hour of my life.

I can't quarrel with your assessment that her qualifications were laughable, but how can you not find a way to entertain yourself for 1/2 hour simply by staring at Miss Texas?

Icky Thump 07-07-2010 11:47 AM

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 427951)
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5360134

But maybe it forces LeBron to give Miami better consideration?

Please, let's change the subject. On another note, what's the best way for me to get the taste of cock out of my mouth?

Did you just call me Coltrane? 07-07-2010 11:47 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 427952)

(Why I remember it, I can't say. I was never particularly into that show; I thought it was good but seriously overrated.)

This ^ comment is going to anger TM more than Mamet's play did.

I have probably seen the Hamptons episode ("I was in the pool!") 20 times. Just saw it again last week. Still hilarious.

Atticus Grinch 07-07-2010 11:49 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 427947)
I think that a lot of writers have that fear, and it ends up lilly-whitifying popular culture, because most writers in hollywood tend to be white. To watch California on television, you'd think that there wasn't a Hispanic within a 500 mile radius. Used to bug the shit out of me in both Buffy (set more or less in the Santa Barbara area) and Angel (set in Los Angeles). I remember reading some interview with a writer* fretting about the issue but being too afraid to do anything about it because he was afraid to get it "wrong." The solution, of course, is to hire Hispanic writers. Not because of any affirmative action bullshit, but because clearly their perspective is desperately needed.

*Can't remember which one. Pretty sure it wasn't Whedon. May have been Fury or Minear.

There are two possible ways for a white writer in Hollywood to include blacks and Hispanics. One is to write a character where minority status is the essential characteristic, and is CONSTANTLY called out for dramatic tension or laughs. I think most writers' rooms are now uncomfortable with this. The second is the Affirmative Action avatar, where a supporting character is selected in order to demonstrate the good faith of the show and to advance the social agenda that blacks are just like us etc. Every show you've seen where the teen computer whiz is black is guilty of this. And now writers are growing past this stage, too, leaving them to find a new third way: a character whose race is an element of their identity, but who is not overly exploited for that, at least not in comparison to other characteristics. I guess this must be hard to do, because there are few examples I can think of. Wanda Sykes on "New Adventures of Old Christine" comes to mind, but it's a little bit guilty of Magical Negro stereotypes because she's the go-to voice of wisdom even though she's supposedly as flawed as the other characters. They go a little too far out of their way to avoid making her, of any of the people on the show, act ridiculous, ever, and that tells me they're still walking a racial tightrope in the writers' room. Fortunately Wanda Sykes is funny.

Unsurprisingly, Hollywood writers were able to achieve this level of plot integration with gay characters sooner. We went from Billy Crystal on "Soap" to any number of characters that are gay but that fact is not the go-to punchline for the character. ("Will & Grace" was an embarrassing throwback.) Seems there might be a gay or two in the writer's room.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 07-07-2010 11:50 AM

Re: Coltrane's gone suburban
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugee (Post 427882)
Welcome to suburbia. It can be fun once you get used to the change from city life.

My cake eater suburb turns into a small town for the 4th of July. The annual parade is more small town than the actual small town where I grew up. Not all floats and marching bands, it is more like neighborhood groups/organizations strolling along. My local Friends of the Library board "marched" in the parade this year and passed out bookmarks. It was a hoot. The parade route was only a mile long and it was packed with families and kids. In the evening at a park in walking distance from the Manor, there was a concert by the 1st John Phillips Sousa Memorial Band and fireworks over the lake. The fireworks in the city are much better (though even those don't hold a candle to the Macy's ones in NYC) but it is nice to walk home at the end rather than fight traffic.

Yeah. I've always wanted to live in either (a) a big city, or (b) a small town, and my suburb really seems like a small town. I can walk to downtown, the train, and to all of the good key parties.

And I can ride my bike to Trader Joes.

Replaced_Texan 07-07-2010 11:57 AM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 427948)
seinfeld, set in NYC? although eventually touched on it lightly with George's boss and his "friend" the exterminator.

My favorite series on television was Joss Whedon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. My favorite book series last year was Stieg Larsson's Millenium Trilogy. In both cases, male writers were able to write feminist characters and narratives ridiculously well. Feminism is pervasive in both series to a point that you don't even notice it, because it's interwoven into the material rather than being "a very special episode" (in Buffy's case) or "the radical feminist character" (in Larsson's case) . In both cases, white men don't seem to have a problem writing about women's experiences and injustices, but I suspect that part of that comes from having strong women in their lives. Whedon had Marti Noxon and the kick-ass Jane Espensen in his writing staff for almost the duration of Buffy. Larsson had Eva Gabrielsson as his lifemate for 20 plus years and wrote a magazine dedicated to social issues before embarking on the Millenium Trilogy.

You don't see that sort embrace of issues when it comes to race, though, of course, there are some exceptions. And lord knows, you don't see it THAT often with women, especially women of color. (Check out the fight between Jezebel and The Daily Show. )

I think it's totally possible for a writer to create a world and characters outside his or her own personal experience. But I think also that being comfortable with the kinds of people that the writer writes about is critical. And then, the writer needs to shove away nagging doubts and just write. Some people will love the perspective, some people will hate it, and some will be offended. Check out discussions about The Help, a novel written by a white woman about the relationship between black domestic workers and white employers in the south in the 60s. The criticism ranges to overwhelming praise to outright anger.

dtb 07-07-2010 11:59 AM

Re: It is an absolute fact Hank
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 427898)
Ummm, I was in the middle lane with no one on my left.

Oh, pfffft. Big deal. I thought you meant passing on the shoulder on the right -- which happens here all the time. It's so aggravating -- lots of geriatrics who go (no kidding) 20 miles below the speed limit. Grrrr.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-07-2010 12:03 PM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 427958)
My favorite series on television was Joss Whedon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. My favorite book series last year was Stieg Larsson's Millenium Trilogy. In both cases, male writers were able to write feminist characters and narratives ridiculously well. Feminism is pervasive in both series to a point that you don't even notice it, because it's interwoven into the material rather than being "a very special episode" (in Buffy's case) or "the radical feminist character" (in Larsson's case) . In both cases, white men don't seem to have a problem writing about women's experiences and injustices, but I suspect that part of that comes from having strong women in their lives. Whedon had Marti Noxon and the kick-ass Jane Espensen in his writing staff for almost the duration of Buffy. Larsson had Eva Gabrielsson as his lifemate for 20 plus years and wrote a magazine dedicated to social issues before embarking on the Millenium Trilogy.

You don't see that sort embrace of issues when it comes to race, though, of course, there are some exceptions. And lord knows, you don't see it THAT often with women, especially women of color. (Check out the fight between Jezebel and The Daily Show. )

I think it's totally possible for a writer to create a world and characters outside his or her own personal experience. But I think also that being comfortable with the kinds of people that the writer writes about is critical. And then, the writer needs to shove away nagging doubts and just write. Some people will love the perspective, some people will hate it, and some will be offended. Check out discussions about The Help, a novel written by a white woman about the relationship between black domestic workers and white employers in the south in the 60s. The criticism ranges to overwhelming praise to outright anger.

I can think of very few white writers who create compelling black characters. Faulkner. Then who?

But every black writer I've ever read (that I can think of now) can create compelling white characters.

Maybe it's a white problem, not a race problem.

Sidd Finch 07-07-2010 12:05 PM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 427955)
This ^ comment is going to anger TM more than Mamet's play did.

I have probably seen the Hamptons episode ("I was in the pool!") 20 times. Just saw it again last week. Still hilarious.

That was a funny episode. There were a lot of funny episodes, catch-llines, etc. I think I was turned off when they fell into the whole meta-plot about the making of the show ("it's a show about nothing!"), which seemed to be around the time that the cultishness hit its peak.

patentparanyc 07-07-2010 12:07 PM

Re: Race
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 427961)
That was a funny episode. There were a lot of funny episodes, catch-llines, etc. I think I was turned off when they fell into the whole meta-plot about the making of the show ("it's a show about nothing!"), which seemed to be around the time that the cultishness hit its peak.

http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/louie/

Louie is the new show on FX by Louis CK the comedian, who I have seen in person and it is cringe inducingly funny.


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