Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

How "petulant" and "childish" of her to want to win a campaign.

And then having lost, what a hissy-fit she had by refusing to work with the guy who beat her ever again.

Which is exactly what Bernie wanted... How dare she.

:rolleyes:

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

By your lights, who in politics isn't?

Re: Interesting Perspective
 

I once was involved in a case where a company run by a two people who were engaged had to have all of its email over a two year period subjected to discovery. One of the two had a proclivities to affairs on the side. The other had a proclivity to long, intense discussions about theoretical mathematics. Myself and a litigator spent a weekend with paralegals coming to us with their emails asking if we cared.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Almost everything you post is ridiculous, but I think this is your best work. Got yourself covered either way. You sure outmaneuvered him! If no one backs him up, you win. If someone agrees, they're a fool. Check and mate.

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

That's not right wing bullshit. Her surrogates destroyed 30,000 emails. You know civil litigation. Imagine the spoliation arguments in a case where that happens. The inference against the party destroying them would be enormous.

If you've been in the position to have done something like this, you know - no order to do so is ever given from the top. It's implied. It's what occurs when you are engaged in an enterprise where the people who can get rid of paper trails understand the need to do so while preserving plausible deniability for the people at the top.

We'll never know for sure, but his statement seems clear... Comey didn't have enough of a case to win because he couldn't find intent. The email destruction could have been an honest error. But the facts in total indicate the fingerprints of people - lawyers, mostly - who understand, when facing the high criminal burden of proof, it's better to argue over why evidence was destroyed than the evidence. There is no inference of guilt in criminal case such as hers would be without a charge for some predicate criminal act. (See Frank Quattrone's saga through the justice system involving a collateral destruction of evidence charge).

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

If a thing works, use it. Whatever deters from a boring identity-politics based discussion.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

There you go again. Bullshit.

Just as an example, we know she's cared deeply about childhood education from the time she wrote her senior paper in college. Obama wrote books about himself; she wrote a book about childhood education. At every step of her career she's been a champion for child-ed. Can you name any politician other than her as closely tied to child ed issues?

It's one example.

And I know. White men never give a shit about early education issues. It doesn't ring their bell. But it's an area that she owns that matters deeply.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

You mean doing exactly what Bernie was going to do? Overpromise on shit that can't be delivered? Bernie wanted to push her left, she moves left, and now she's doing it "knowing full well she's going to give his followers nothing?" You are brain dead. She is not the king. If a bill reached her desk that made any sense at all on any of the policies Bernie got her to adopt, she'd sign it. But everyone except you and the dumbest of Bernie's followers know that the current and future Congress will not allow it.

Whatever. This shit is pointless.

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

She and Bill acted entitled. Fuck them.

She demanded he give her the post. It was a trade. And he fucking hates them.

Right. Bernie wanted his material used to defraud his followers.

You're still not getting the pile-on.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

She's not even going to try. And TPP's coming. Bernie was for naught. Hillary understands just how short the attention span of the average American is, and she's not even going to pay lip service to the left positions she took.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

The fact that you jump to the worst case scenario is all the evidence anyone needs to know that the constant refrain of Hillary's corruption has worked on you. The simplest explanation is that she doesn't want to have every single email she wrote studied for the next 5 years and each nasty thing she said about the left, the right, Obama, the Pope, Putin, Cameron, Merkle, whoever released and held up for everyone to see. And it seems reasonable to believe that she knew she'd be subject to this level of scrutiny based on her 30 years experience going through the right's same bullshit at every level.

TM

Re: Interesting Perspective
 

I listened to this all yesterday at work (or whatever the youtube playlist auto-selected for me), thanks. Also, I saw what you did there a while ago with the oxford comma reference. It might be the only music reference I'd ever understand from you, being the musical plebe I am.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

You use it to pull so much bullshit out of, how do you keep your ass from getting sore?

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Fair enough. So she cares about childhood education. And she cares about health care reform.

Where it matters - economic issues - she cares about campaign contributions.

And on foreign policy, she cares about a set of policies that conveniently benefit the defense industry. She cares about interventionism. By extension, she doesn't care much about wasting American lives.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Obama detests them. He's just protecting his legacy, and views Trump as a serious danger.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

What.

the.

fuck.

does.

this.

mean?

She's not going to send a bill to Congress? She's not going to review a bill that makes it past the first step to becoming a law? She's not going to pointlessly push for shit that has no chance of passing?

You and I keep having the same conversation, whether we're talking about Obama's ability to change state laws or any executive's ability to push for legislative action.

Please express how Bernie or Hillary or anyone gets anything Bernie wants passed.

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

First, I asked about her, and you refer to Bill as well, which I'm not sure you would do for a man. Just sayin'.

But to your point, I agree with your recollection, and I was more sympathetic to Obama. She surely felt like she had paid her dues within the party for a long time, and who was this upstart? I'm not sympathetic to her on that score, but I think it was much more an issue with the people around her, who have always talked too much.

But in the big scheme of things, so what? It doesn't make her a scumbag.

1. Can't recall what you're on about here.
2. So? Are you that offended by politicians who "play racial politics"?

No, it's how coalition politics works, and the Democratic Party is a coalition. The Bernie people proved their strength, and to win them over she needs to move in their direction. I agree that her instincts are centrist, but the party is pushing her to the left. It's just like every Republican politician in the last two decades who have moved to the right because the party's right-wing have applied pressure.

That's BS. She stands for things that you don't care about, but she doesn't stand for nothing. She has always worked for incremental progress on non-sexy issues.

You exaggerate, but I hear you. I don't care for her instincts.* OTOH, she was by all accounts a workaholic Secretary of State who spent a lot of time in nuts and bolts of diplomacy, and the people you have lumped her with her would not see the value in that. So, as with your other complaints about her, you haven't really said anything about her that isn't true of a lot of other people, and you don't seem to have an explanation of why you think she so deserves the vitriol. As I said before, you're not alone in this, and I don't get it.

* On foreign policy and many other issues (financial regulation, trade, the economy), HRC seems to me to have internalized the centrist Democrat "defensive crouch" of the 80's and 90's.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

That's a fair critique. But these things are not mutually exclusive.

And Colin Powell, on the other hand, destroyed none of his private emails in which he discussed state dept matters. Nor did Rice.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

You are, once again, testing the limits of your asshole's rim integrity.

If he truly despised the Clintons, he would have pushed for Biden 2 years ago, behind the scenes. But none of that shit matters because you don't know shit about what he likes or dislikes. The only thing that matters is he is supporting her completely.

"He's protecting his legacy." Your dimestore psychoanalysis is comical.

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

She's not going to lift a finger on debt forgiveness because the banks and funds in that business would flip out at even her hinting at seriously considering such a bill.

The trying is the thing. That was Bernie's genius. He started the conversation on these third rail issues. She will not only refuse to do so, but actively seek to suppress it within her party.

The left's going to get pushed down quite hard in a Clinton Presidency. Just as it was triangulated out of the conversation during her husband's.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

I think you're saying, if you could plausible accuse her of having done anything wrong, the way she handled her email would be pretty damning. Maybe so, but it just underscores that no one is plausibly accusing her of having down anything wrong, even after wading through a lot of email.

If you're batshit crazy, you can conjure up a conspiracy to effectively hide what was in those other emails. Or, you can think that her staff destroyed a lot of personal email that they thought had nothing to do with official business, and needn't be seen by the people who like to go through her history to try to tear her down.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Biden was weak, and deemed too old. Only when it was too late did he emerge as the guy who'd easily win. And Obama couldn't push the guy because Joe legitimately was consumed with other concerns. Like his son dying of cancer.

Your analysis is naive, and for shit.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Do you just make shit up? No one thinks this.

Again, where do you come up with this shit? It is nice to see you following Obama as a thought leader, though.

Re: Interesting Perspective
 

Sometimes I forget that having read all of multiple people's emails is not a universal experience.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-sm...is-word-006674

And the general consensus is that she let her people run with the Muslim rumors in states where that would benefit her. See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-...b_9312004.html

Uh...Yes? Is this a trick question?

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

I'm willing to assume she explicitly ordered it. So what?

Maybe.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

They're a team. And really - how could she shut up Bill? You know he's going to interfere like crazy.

See below.

1. http://theweek.com/articles/567774/h...-2008-campaign
2. I am. What W did to McCain in South Carolina earns him a special ring in hell.

She has unparalleled power within the party. Matched with the power of the office, she'll squash the left.

She's "product." Poll produced product, as I stated before. And what she does believe in, neocon foreign policy, is dangerous and deluded.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Sure doesn't seem like it. Definitely didn't look like it on stage in Philly. And he sure seems to be willing to help her out.

You're the only one who cares about a "pile on."

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

He's detested them since Bill started with the race dog whistles in 2008. That's just fact. And a shitload of people in DC think exactly this.

That's awesome. Well done, sir.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

She's running against Trump! Legacy, and love of country. He'd bear hug a thorn bush on stage if it were guaranteed to beat Trump.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Because they had zero political aspirations beyond the office they held at that point and had no reason to believe they'd ever be subject to the levels of scrutiny Hillary gets walking down the street?

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

It was a straight question, not a rhetorical one. I was on Obama's side then, and I'm not going to defend her on that score, but...

... has Sebby ever complained about anyone else "playing racial politics"? It can't possibly explain why he called her a scumbag.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Aside from the fact that you are, once again, talking completely out of your ass, you haven't answered the question other than to say, "The trying is the thing."

No. It's not. Expressing unattainable goals gets you a cult following when you're running for President. It makes no fucking sense when you are actually governing. And again, what does "trying" look like when it comes the executive branch?

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Others used private email (Powell, Rice, many more). None destroyed so much. And I don;t think many, if any, had it on private email servers. I believe Powell's and Rice's were private accounts they used at their official offices, which could be traced/recovered easily (and were).

Hillary set up a private server and wiped out 30,000 emails.

So you have duck, duck, duck, duck... armadillo!

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

If I didn't do so as to Bush, it's because there was soooo much else to use.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

I agree that she shouldn't have done it. But so what?

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

If the President demands we start discussing an issue, it is no longer a third rail issue, and policy change can be implemented eventually.

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Biden was weighing his options for a long time and specifically avoided declining to run until the absolute last possible minute. If Obama made it clear early on that Biden had his support over Hillary, who knows how that would have affect Biden's decision?

Biden wasn't weak. If he had started making it clear he was entering the campaign early enough, he would have crushed Hillary and Bernie.

Hahahahahahaha! Given the high levels of bullshit you consistenly throw at this board, that comment is fantastic!

TM

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Huh? Nobody was going to investigate the correspondence of the guy who sold the Iraq war to the UN? Or the Secretary of State who presided during it? These people had far more at risk than Hillary. They were in Kissinger territory, being called war criminals by members of foreign govts in the developed world!

Re: We're in Bat(shit) Country
 

Lemme recap. I asked, why do you hate HRC so much? In response, you've said a lot of stuff, some of it with some real truth, but nothing isn't true of a lot of other people. I still don't get why you hate her so much.