Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 499388)

The Trump voter wants the impossible - to roll back globalization, economically and culturally.

The Establishment is being foolish on Trump. They should support and then co-opt him to their uses. He's inviting them to do so right now by saying he'll make deals, and they're ignoring him. It's quite baffling. Sure, Trump has baggage that would kill a traditional candidate. But he's a protest candidate, a mere vessel, and the people who will vote for him will do so no matter what muck comes out in the press.

The Establishment should engage in a Kabuki dance with Trump which allows him to hold his bona fides with the insurgent voters, cut a deal with him to govern as a moderate behind closed doors, and then find a way to funnel him piles of money without too overtly supporting him in public during the election, and shift his argument from "fuck the GOP Establishment" to "fuck the whole Establishment." That'll peel off independent voters and some Reagan Democrats.

Trump is the only guy out there who can beat Hillary. The GOP Establishment simply has to be a bit creative and stop viewing him as uncontrollable. Trump is not an American Caligula -- not by a long shot. He's a bloated ego who'll be way out of his depth and wind up staffing his administration with Establishment lackeys and Wall Street clowns. "Meet the new boss..."

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 499392)

But he's right. GOP voters have figure out it never trickles down.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 499401)

This isn't a revelation.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 499394)

Read the articles I linked to in a previous post.

I understand it's hard to ignore the Pavlovian urge to state "All Trump voters are just racists and homophobes." It feels good, and it makes the necessary moral judgment a lot easier. The problem is, it's not true. Some are racists, no doubt, and his rallies are seriously creepy. But you keep saying "all" of the "insurgent voters," and that's plainly avoiding an argument of degree. An important one. Why is it important? Because from Occupy to Bernie to Trump, there's a common thread -- a complaint about lack of living wage jobs, and wealth inequality. There is a huge discussion to be had on the issue of economic globalization and its impacts on workers that the Establishment of both parties, and their biggest donors, work assiduously to avoid.

Look... Globalization is unavoidable. Millions of Americans are fucked going forward. Utterly, totally fucked. We have and will have a bifurcated society. Right now, the Bernie voter, the Trump voter -- these people are grasping just how screwed they're going to be. And the rest of us are responding by avoiding that discussion, and the reason is simple. We don't want to admit it to them. If Joe Sixpack understands his dire straits, he's liable to vote for a guy like Bernie or Trump. And this would harm those of us who do fine in a global system. And it would sure as hell harm those who make enormous sums by cost cutting with labor arbitrage.

When people say dumb things like "All Trump voters are racists and homophobes," the honest conversation with Joe Sixpack never occurs. We never reach it.

And I think the media focus on the racist element of Trumpism is not an accident. First, it's ugly, so it attracts clicks and eyeballs on the TV. But second, and more importantly, it helps to avoid discussion of the economic causes of Trumpism (and Bernie), which Rupert Murdoch sure as fuck doesn't want to give any airtime.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 499394)

Read the articles I linked to in a previous post.

I understand it's hard to ignore the Pavlovian urge to state "All Trump voters are just racists and homophobes." It feels good, and it makes the necessary moral judgment a lot easier. The problem is, it's not true. Some are racists, no doubt, and his rallies are seriously creepy. But you keep saying "all" of the "insurgent voters," and that's plainly avoiding an argument of degree. An important one. Why is it important? Because from Occupy to Bernie to Trump, there's a common thread -- a complaint about lack of living wage jobs, and wealth inequality. There is a huge discussion to be had on the issue of economic globalization and its impacts on workers that the Establishment of both parties, and their biggest donors, work assiduously to avoid.

Look... Globalization is unavoidable. Millions of Americans are fucked going forward. Utterly, totally fucked. We have and will have a bifurcated society. Right now, the Bernie voter, the Trump voter -- these people are grasping just how screwed they're going to be. And the rest of us are responding by avoiding that discussion, and the reason is simple. We don't want to admit it to them. If Joe Sixpack understands his dire straits, he's liable to vote for a guy like Bernie or Trump. And this would harm those of us who do fine in a global system. And it would sure as hell harm those who make enormous sums by cost cutting with labor arbitrage.

When people say dumb things like "All Trump voters are racists and homophobes," the honest conversation with Joe Sixpack never occurs. We never reach it.

And I think the media focus on the racist element of Trumpism is not an accident. First, it's ugly, so it attracts clicks and eyeballs on the TV. But second, and more importantly, it helps to avoid discussion of the economic causes of Trumpism (and Bernie), which Rupert Murdoch sure as fuck doesn't want to give any airtime.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 499404)

I have never said: "All Trump voters are just racists and homophobes." So whether or not I have some Pavlovian urge to say it is irrelevant. Because I did not say it.

You: "But you keep saying 'all' of the 'insurgent voters,' and that's plainly avoiding an argument of degree."

I didn't say that either. I did not say that in the post you quoted RIGHT ABOVE the your response misquoting my post that you QUOTED RIGHT ABOVE YOUR MISQUOTE. Your ability to misquote me when you have provided my exact quote right above your misquote and think nobody will notice is positively Trumpian. Moreover, the fact that you put the word "all" in quotes when I did not use that word is particularly galling to me given that I have worked so hard to raise the level of mental discipline and intellectual rigor on these chatting boards. You make me feel like I have been just wasting my time. But I understand that it is hard to ignore the Pavlovian urge to take my actual argument and distort it into an absurd extreme of my actual argument, and then try to rebut the absurd extreme distortion of my actual argument instead of my actual argument. It feels good and it makes the counter-argument a lot easier. But my actual point is a simple one -- the fact that a large part of the Trump voting base consists of racist, homophobic xenophobes, and the fact that Trump openly caters to this base is all anyone should need to know about whether or not this guy should be in the White House.

Originally Posted by Not Bob (Post 499395)

The points you and Sebby* are making re Trump are not necessarily inconsistent. In fact, I think that both points are needed to understand his appeal, and they both feed the other.

*Raouuuuuuuuul! (Related: I miss Fringey.)

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 499407)

If not Trump, no one can take out Hillary, our likely next President.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 499406)

Jesus fucking Christ, NotBob, don't start with this stupid fucking "Well, I think I can see some valid points in what both of you are saying and if you both stopped shouting, I think you might realize that you even have some common ground" goody goody schoolmarm bullshit. Can't we all just get along? No, NotBob, we fucking cannot get along. Put your Lilith Fair Sirius channel back on and get back to work.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 499408)

It's starting to look like Bernie might have had the best chance. And that's over too.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 499407)

If not Trump, no one can take out Hillary, our likely next President.

Originally Posted by Not Bob (Post 499409)

Words hurt, Flower. Even grizzled old veterans of the "is Alanis alternative?" battles of the mid-1990s can be hurt by invective.

Kidding aside, I was making an observation about the rise of Trump in this election cycle. Then, after I posted my paen to the virtues of goody goody schoolmarmisms, I see this from you:



To which I say, absolutely. And now it's like he's actually playing into the themes of fascism - asking his audiences to raise their right arms in an oath to vote for him? Jesus. As a nod to my misspent youth in the AOR universe (pre-Punk Rock Girl and New Wave -- and way before the Acoustic Estrogen of my middle age), please cue Rainbow's "Can't Happen Here." Sing it, Joe Lynn Tuner.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 499406)

Jesus fucking Christ, NotBob, don't start with this stupid fucking "Well, I think I can see some valid points in what both of you are saying and if you both stopped shouting, I think you might realize that you even have some common ground" goody goody schoolmarm bullshit. Can't we all just get along? No, NotBob, we fucking cannot get along. Put your Lilith Fair Sirius channel back on and get back to work.