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-   -   You (all) lie! (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=848)

sebastian_dangerfield 03-25-2010 05:14 PM
Re: You (all) lie!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 420050)
Let's both friend her.
One at a time. She doesn't do multiples.

Tyrone Slothrop 03-25-2010 05:26 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 420051)
Buckley had it right. He felt an obligation to debate with opponents and engage them, however ridiculous he felt their ideas were. Hence, crazy but articulate liberals like Mark Greene made numerous appearances on his show, and he gave them the floor and replied politely (save Vidal). Now, "conservatism" looks a lot like "tribalism" and "religion."
His openness to engagement with other ideas was a sign of health.

Quote:
But thinking conservatism is not dead. Not by a long shot. Along with thinking progressivism, it's the big quiet middle.
What do you mean? Anyone with ideas who wants to be part of the conservative movement needs to toe the party line or they will be defrumestrated. That's not healthy for the Frums and Bartletts of the world, and it suggests that those left on the inside aren't doing much thinking. Come the next GOP Administration, it's likely to be staffed by a lot of movement conservatives who are used to supressing independent thought in the name of whatever is politically expedient. That won't be good for the country.

PresentTense Pirate Penske 03-25-2010 05:28 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 420049)
Bruce Bartlett:



It's the conservative movement is an unhealthy caricature of itself. I wish there were conservatives who thought it was time to fire the donors and find new ones.
Generally I agree with the above, although, having a little experience with fundraising, I'd like to see your business plan on the last sentence, although will note, I am not I will ever tell Bartlett anything in confidence, unless I want the whole blogosphere to know, in which case I will post it on my own blog first.

PresentTense Pirate Penske 03-25-2010 05:29 PM
Re: You (all) lie!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 420050)
Let's both friend her.
Righteous!

PresentTense Pirate Penske 03-25-2010 05:30 PM
Re: You (all) lie!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 420052)
One at a time. She doesn't do multiples.
Fair enough. Age before beauty,,,,,,,you are up GGG. :)

Sidd Finch 03-25-2010 05:45 PM
Re: You (all) lie!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresentTense Pirate Penske (Post 420061)
Fair enough. Age before beauty,,,,,,,you are up GGG. :)
You give up too easily. Just because she won't do a multiple with Sebby....

Sidd Finch 03-25-2010 05:47 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 420058)
What do you mean? Anyone with ideas who wants to be part of the conservative movement needs to toe the party line or they will be defrumestrated. That's not healthy for the Frums and Bartletts of the world, and it suggests that those left on the inside aren't doing much thinking. Come the next GOP Administration, it's likely to be staffed by a lot of movement conservatives who are used to supressing independent thought in the name of whatever is politically expedient. That won't be good for the country.
Didn't we see that with W -- people getting appointments because they were "loyal Bushies"? Staffing important positions in Iraq with people whose only qualification was working on the campaign?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's even worse in the next GOP administration (though I'm hopeful that that'll be far enough away that the GOP will get its act together beforehand), but it would be a difference of degree, not nature.

ThurgreedMarshall 03-25-2010 06:11 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 420058)
What do you mean? Anyone with ideas who wants to be part of the conservative movement needs to toe the party line or they will be defrumestrated. That's not healthy for the Frums and Bartletts of the world, and it suggests that those left on the inside aren't doing much thinking. Come the next GOP Administration, it's likely to be staffed by a lot of movement conservatives who are used to supressing independent thought in the name of whatever is politically expedient. That won't be good for the country.
How do you get a single, widely-circulated, on point message from every single GOP operative otherwise? Their efficiency when it comes to approach, message and strategy means that there must be severe punishment for those who wander.

You can't have it both ways.

TM

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 03-25-2010 06:59 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 420051)
Buckley had it right. He felt an obligation to debate with opponents and engage them, however ridiculous he felt their ideas were. Hence, crazy but articulate liberals like Mark Greene made numerous appearances on his show, and he gave them the floor and replied politely (save Vidal). Now, "conservatism" looks a lot like "tribalism" and "religion."

But thinking conservatism is not dead. Not by a long shot. Along with thinking progressivism, it's the big quiet middle.
As I think I've mentioned before, I once edited a publication founded by Buckley and had some interaction with him as a result (no, not NR). As a result, I was also the witness of a very significant number of one-on-ones that at the time I thought were quite predictable and ritualistic. Now, however, looking back, I have to say they had a civilizing influence on both sides, even if there were elements of the prepacked in them - at least it was a prepackaged conversation instead of two separate prepackaged sales jobs each using the other as strawman.

The Dem party today is still much more diverse and less prone to being the sound of one line flapping than the Rs. There's a lot of benefit in that.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 03-25-2010 07:13 PM
Re: You (all) lie!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 420052)
One at a time. She doesn't do multiples.
Husbands are always the last to know.

Eh! STP! Damn you Sidd

LessinSF 03-25-2010 11:15 PM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 420077)
The Dem party today is still much more diverse and less prone to being the sound of one line flapping than the Rs. There's a lot of benefit in that.
Agreed, provided it leads to splintering and, nay say, a third fucking party, viable or not.

PresentTense Pirate Penske 03-26-2010 01:26 AM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 420087)
Agreed, provided it leads to splintering and, nay say, a third fucking party, viable or not.
teabaggers? yes?

sebastian_dangerfield 03-26-2010 09:46 AM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 420077)
As I think I've mentioned before, I once edited a publication founded by Buckley and had some interaction with him as a result (no, not NR). As a result, I was also the witness of a very significant number of one-on-ones that at the time I thought were quite predictable and ritualistic. Now, however, looking back, I have to say they had a civilizing influence on both sides, even if there were elements of the prepacked in them - at least it was a prepackaged conversation instead of two separate prepackaged sales jobs each using the other as strawman.

The Dem party today is still much more diverse and less prone to being the sound of one line flapping than the Rs. There's a lot of benefit in that.
That had to have been pretty cool. I know a guy who got a grant from him to write long ago. He was in journalism and, conditioned to cross everyone, during a conversation at Buckley's house asked the man if "He'd ever experienced any apprehension or weakness" in his life. He figured he might get a reply discussing Buckley's early troubles in fighting the status quo liberalism fashionable when God and Man at Yale came out, NR started, and Buckley positioned himself as an enfante terrible of the political pundit circuit. The response he got was a story about how Buckley was sailing once and thought he'd caught himself in a storm that would have capsized the boat. He related being apprehensive about what he was doing for a few minutes. The guy I know followed up with, "That was it? In your whole life?" Buckley was joking to a degree, but from what this guy related about his charming, but imperial nature, probably not that much.

You're lucky. That guy was quietly one of the most influential and entertaining figures of the 20th century. Somebody gave me a dvd documentary about Hunter Thompson where Buckley muses affectionately about a screaming liberal who did nothing but rail against most of what Buckley championed. You don't see too much of that anymore - that capacity to appreciate the opposition. The last thing I think I saw like that was McCain stopping the old lady calling Obama a Muslim at a rally and saying, "No. He's a good and decent man. We just disagree on how the country should be run." Sadly, every time McCain's done something like that, the base has demonized and attacked him. Now he's degraded himself to running with Palin by his side in Arizona.

From Bill Buckley to Glenn Beck and Townhall, Gore Vidal to DailyKos and Keith Olbermann. Congratulations, America. We've really moved the bar upward.

Tyrone Slothrop 03-26-2010 10:28 AM
Re: Can we have a new conservative movement, please?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 420101)
That had to have been pretty cool. I know a guy who got a grant from him to write long ago. He was in journalism and, conditioned to cross everyone, during a conversation at Buckley's house asked the man if "He'd ever experienced any apprehension or weakness" in his life. He figured he might get a reply discussing Buckley's early troubles in fighting the status quo liberalism fashionable when God and Man at Yale came out, NR started, and Buckley positioned himself as an enfante terrible of the political pundit circuit. The response he got was a story about how Buckley was sailing once and thought he'd caught himself in a storm that would have capsized the boat. He related being apprehensive about what he was doing for a few minutes. The guy I know followed up with, "That was it? In your whole life?" Buckley was joking to a degree, but from what this guy related about his charming, but imperial nature, probably not that much.

You're lucky. That guy was quietly one of the most influential and entertaining figures of the 20th century. Somebody gave me a dvd documentary about Hunter Thompson where Buckley muses affectionately about a screaming liberal who did nothing but rail against most of what Buckley championed. You don't see too much of that anymore - that capacity to appreciate the opposition. The last thing I think I saw like that was McCain stopping the old lady calling Obama a Muslim at a rally and saying, "No. He's a good and decent man. We just disagree on how the country should be run." Sadly, every time McCain's done something like that, the base has demonized and attacked him. Now he's degraded himself to running with Palin by his side in Arizona.

From Bill Buckley to Glenn Beck and Townhall, Gore Vidal to DailyKos and Keith Olbermann. Congratulations, America. We've really moved the bar upward.
I'm not seeing the Gore Vidal thing as such a big loss.

Tyrone Slothrop 03-26-2010 10:29 AM
the face of the conservative movement
 
Quote:
the washington post today has a profile of mike vanderboegh, the 57-year-old former militiaman from alabama who last week posted a call for people to throw bricks through the windows at democratic offices around the country to protest their votes for health care reform. Whether the people who actually did this over the last week did so in reaction to his call to arms is not clear. But he's happy to take credit and others are crediting him too.

... A radical libertarian, champion of getting big government off the people's backs, his day job? Vanderboegh lives on government disability checks down outside of birmingham, alabama.
tpm

eta: the board software's selective decapitalization is a little weird -- maybe an homage to Wall Street?


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