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-   -   Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=875)

taxwonk 01-07-2015 02:08 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492708)
Does it matter whether I'm dealing with the Governor's daughter, who started on 3rd base, or some kid from the Bronx who started someplace far from the stadium?
Of course it matters. That's silly question. There are reasons to favor either one, as there are risks inherent in hiring either one. The real question is, does the extra money having the Governor's kid will bring to the office more important than giving a conscious chance to somebody who saw a way and worked at it until they got to where they are? I don't really think anybody could blame you for either choice. But we both know who is more deserving of the chance, and we also know that what makes them deserving of the benefit of the doubt is that they have already shown a strong propensity to dig in when the shit got deep and do what needed doing.

taxwonk 01-07-2015 02:10 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492710)
Know one of those who wants a 2nd or 3rd year corporate associate position billing north of 2000 hours a year?
See. Now, when you've known him as long as I have, you get to call him John.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-07-2015 02:31 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492714)
Of course it matters. That's silly question. There are reasons to favor either one, as there are risks inherent in hiring either one. The real question is, does the extra money having the Governor's kid will bring to the office more important than giving a conscious chance to somebody who saw a way and worked at it until they got to where they are? I don't really think anybody could blame you for either choice. But we both know who is more deserving of the chance, and we also know that what makes them deserving of the benefit of the doubt is that they have already shown a strong propensity to dig in when the shit got deep and do what needed doing.
But, assuming you are giving preference to someone who is a minority, do you give it to all minorities, even ones who are privileged in other ways?

Yeah, you're right, almost every law firm in America probably finds room for the governor's kid, regardless.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-07-2015 02:37 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492708)
Does it matter whether I'm dealing with the Governor's daughter, who started on 3rd base, or some kid from the Bronx who started someplace far from the stadium?
This question is impossible to answer.

Look, if you feel like the candidate with impressive resume credentials built up through their parents' network means that they will be better for the job or make your life easier, then hire them.

If you feel like the candidate that clawed their way up from nothing to be sitting in front of you will be at a disadvantage that can't be overcome making it more difficult for you to do your job, don't hire them.

Here's how I think about it: If I choose the candidate who had to overcome a lot of shit to get in front of me, I will enjoy bringing that person along. However, if I do not think, after meeting that person, that they can overcome the learning curve and be in a position to thrive, it is not worth my or their time. If I choose a candidate who looks awesome on paper, but who is clearly full of themselves such that they're going to find junior associate work beneath them, it is not worth my time.

TM

Hank Chinaski 01-07-2015 02:37 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492713)
Yeah, I disagree violently with the hiring officer. My rule has always been to interview broadly, because we shouldn't be thinking that a certain GPA, or any other paper credential, qualifies you to become a good lawyer. And we shouldn't want people who fit too well.

By the way, once upon a time I thought much more deeply about these issues than I have had to in a long time. I was head of the hiring committee at another firm about a dozen years ago, and took a very aggressive approach along the lines Sidd suggested - I wanted people not born on 3rd base and I doubled the number of interviews we did at each school (while not increasing the number of hires - but this meant the high GPA folks didn't dominate the interviews the same way).

The classes I hired were each almost 50% minority and were majority women. The first year, my partners thought it was great, they were surprised at how many "good" candidates I found who were minorities. The second year, one law school complained, saying that we were "hostile" to a candidate who I had basically asked "you were born on third base; tell me how you overcome that?" (we got no complaints about questions about how people overcame all sorts of much tougher shit), and no one commented at all on all the great minorities we were hiring. That was my last year; they got someone else to run the process after that.

Looking back years later, the minorities were the ones, for the most part, who made partner. Though a couple of them then left for really sweet in-house jobs.

Now I just have to hire one person, and we'll see what the resumes look like. I've also recently been put in charge of hiring paralegals. First one hired was a woman and a minority; we'll see when people figure out my general philosophy.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-va...d-john-gardner

Tyrone Slothrop 01-07-2015 02:40 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492714)
Of course it matters. That's silly question. There are reasons to favor either one, as there are risks inherent in hiring either one. The real question is, does the extra money having the Governor's kid will bring to the office more important than giving a conscious chance to somebody who saw a way and worked at it until they got to where they are? I don't really think anybody could blame you for either choice. But we both know who is more deserving of the chance, and we also know that what makes them deserving of the benefit of the doubt is that they have already shown a strong propensity to dig in when the shit got deep and do what needed doing.
There's no guarantee that the Governor's kid will bring more money, and I'm not sure whether either kid "deserves" it is at issue.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-07-2015 02:46 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492716)
But, assuming you are giving preference to someone who is a minority, do you give it to all minorities, even ones who are privileged in other ways?
That's a tough one. I tend to dislike privilege. And I'd probably pick the white kid who came from nowhere and kicked ass to get where he is over a black kid who was given every privilege. But I'll note that a super-privileged black kid is rare and will have all kinds of opportunities (the ones born of privilege and the ones that come with being what so many elite firms fight over--a black kid with rich white kid qualifications).

Seems a bit sad to take it out on the product of what black families have been striving for for generations, especially when it's so rare. But privilege is privilege. And he won't go lacking for opportunity.

TM

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-07-2015 02:51 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 492718)
We once chose to interview someone almost exclusively on the basis that they won a state-wide beauty contest. It was before I chaired the committee, but I thought it was worth talking to her because beating all those bitches meant she had some game, but a few people thought the hiring committee was spending the firm's good money to fly in some babe to get oogled by old dudes.

But, I understand you have the best law firm marching band in the state in your office.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-07-2015 02:55 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492721)
That's a tough one. I tend to dislike privilege. And I'd probably pick the white kid who came from nowhere and kicked ass to get where he is over a black kid who was given every privilege. But I'll note that a super-privileged black kid is rare and will have all kinds of opportunities (the ones born of privilege and the ones that come with being what so many elite firms fight over--a black kid with rich white kid qualifications).

Seems a bit sad to take it out on the product of what black families have been striving for for generations, especially when it's so rare. But privilege is privilege. And he won't go lacking for opportunity.

TM
I don't have an answer for it in the abstract. It can become a sharper issue when you only have one position. When I was looking at hiring a first year class, there were always some white superprivileged guys you could bump for someone with almost any challenge in their background. It was just the nature of the beast.

taxwonk 01-07-2015 03:19 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492716)
But, assuming you are giving preference to someone who is a minority, do you give it to all minorities, even ones who are privileged in other ways?

Yeah, you're right, almost every law firm in America probably finds room for the governor's kid, regardless.
Let's start by challenging the assumption you are talking about a minority. If you go back to look at your fact pattern, you didn't say anything that expressly identified your other candidate as someone who had to work their way up. Wouldn't that just as easily be the case for a kid from a portuguese fishing family in Fall River or a kid from Southie?

The fact that someone has white skin gives them an edge, no doubt about it. But if we're talking about breaking the link between signifier and signified, don't you have to go all the way down to Level One?

I'm acknowledging that giving a minority kid has a benefit to society overall, in the sense that it will change the balance by a few basis points. But what if the black kid or the south asian kid lives in Swankytown and the white kid is this century's Horatio Alger? (I know I'm switching up somewhat here, but I really want to drill down on the very first choice you make, because it ripples through everything that happens after.

Replaced_Texan 01-07-2015 03:22 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492698)
So, after all this discussion on racial discrimination in hiring, I'm about to go into the market for a young corporate associate. Should I intentionally be giving preference to candidates who are minorities? To women candidates?
Just go in with the idea that there is no such thing as a perfect candidate. Lots of people meet the qualifications of the job, and it's very unlikely that someone is "best qualified" (unless, maybe, you're poaching from another firm to work with a particular client that you also poached), and throw a wide net. And if you throw someone out because they're not a fit with your firm's culture, make sure that your firm's culture isn't skewed so it excludes people based on race, orientation, sex, ethnic background, etc.

Also, age discrimination is a thing too. There may be some older corporate associates out there who are super awesome but they graduated at the worst possible time to get meaningful experience.

taxwonk 01-07-2015 03:40 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492719)
There's no guarantee that the Governor's kid will bring more money, and I'm not sure whether either kid "deserves" it is at issue.
You're partly right on the first point you make. The fact that the Governor's daughter works there will bring some amount of new business, if only from people hedging their bets.

On the second issue, "deserving it" should have everything to do with it. I mean, everything objective is equal in the hypothetical: same grades, same school, same experience level. If you don't hire the one more deserving of the job by some criteria, be it quality of their suit, some unique evidence of hard work or sacrifice, what are you left with: Did they drool the soup?

taxwonk 01-07-2015 03:43 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 492725)
Just go in with the idea that there is no such thing as a perfect candidate. Lots of people meet the qualifications of the job, and it's very unlikely that someone is "best qualified" (unless, maybe, you're poaching from another firm to work with a particular client that you also poached), and throw a wide net. And if you throw someone out because they're not a fit with your firm's culture, make sure that your firm's culture isn't skewed so it excludes people based on race, orientation, sex, ethnic background, etc.

Also, age discrimination is a thing too. There may be some older corporate associates out there who are super awesome but they graduated at the worst possible time to get meaningful experience.
As usual, you have the most cogent thing to say on practical application of ideas like these. It's almost as if your training and experience somehow give you a keen perspective or something.

Adder 01-07-2015 04:13 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492685)
. Some asshole still sits at a desk somewhere and decides what each piece of data is worth.
This is what you keep getting wrong. Some asshole is going to sit at a desk somewhere and say, "computer tell me what factors are predicative of being likely to repay a mortage" or "gee, I wonder what dimensions of factor X are predictive of repaying a mortage."

Big data really not just the sum of small data. It's aggregation plus computerized analysis.

taxwonk 01-07-2015 04:26 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492733)
This is what you keep getting wrong. Some asshole is going to sit at a desk somewhere and say, "computer tell me what factors are predicative of being likely to repay a mortage" or "gee, I wonder what dimensions of factor X are predictive of repaying a mortage."

Big data really not just the sum of small data. It's aggregation plus computerized analysis.
So what you are telling me is that it collects absolutely everything. Period. For every purpose.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-07-2015 04:31 PM
I think it wants people to stop talking about "big data."
 
What does Al Qaeda want?

sebastian_dangerfield 01-07-2015 04:58 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492707)
Cost is equal. Either way, you're hiring a junior associate. Same for skill.

So you're saying that personality is the sole factor? Tell us more about how you assess personality. I think this is the point Thurgreed was focusing on: Ceteris paribus (sp?) how do you decide?
I don't know. I didn't like being involved in interviewing. Reminded me of fraternity selections -- all the biggest tools and meanest assholes involved in the process criticizing a candidate the most. And how do I truly judge a person based on a short meeting? (Because I was not going for drinks or lunch with the person unless forced to do so.)

I always gave everybody who seemed fun and lighthearted high marks. What did I care? Wasn't my money.

Hiring and firing when I ran my own business? Different thing entirely. "Personality" there was low cost/low maintenance, loyal and intelligent, but not too intelligent. The really smart ones are tough to manage.

I think all managers seek that balance, from the most complex work to the simplest rote toil... But man, finding that sweet spot is tough. It's rare to find a person just brainy enough to deliver at maximum capacity in a position, yet be easily retained. The brains always come with ambition, or an ability to game the organization.

sebastian_dangerfield 01-07-2015 05:13 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492716)
Yeah, you're right, almost every law firm in America probably finds room for the governor's kid, regardless.
Not just every law firm, but every business, period. You have to hire her. But it's only a temporary thing. When the governor loses, you can fire her.

PA being a cesspool of pay to play politics, there's probably a hundred million in legal contracts being doled out around the state to lawyers who supported a certain party, or certain candidates. When that party is out of power, or the candidate sending the business to the favored firm loses, the business immediately gets sent to the firm supporting the winner. People joke about it during election years ("Hey, don't go and settle that case... We'll be getting it back soon enough!")

Sidd Finch 01-07-2015 05:30 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492706)
The most honest thing a hiring partner ever said to me was "if you're sitting here, you already know you're qualified for the job. The interview is only to see how well you fit in." There are whole universes of meaning in that sentence.
That hiring partner was either a liar, stupid, or never had the experience of interviewing a guy who got good grades but couldn't get through a 30-minute interview without either putting the interviewer to sleep or making several wildly inappropriate statements (or, in the really thrilling interviews I've had, both).

I've seem a lot of candidates who were just fine on paper, but had such shitty personalities, presence, or judgment that I would never want a client to see them -- which meant that they were not qualified.

This depends, of course, on the nature of the firm and the position. At some places, a book-smart guy who can work hard but neither has nor wants a personality might be a good thing, and he'll never see a client anyway. But that wouldn't work for me or, I would guess, GGG.

Just because someone gets an interview doesn't mean that they are qualified for the job or meet the hiring standards. It means that what they have on paper is good enough to get them an interview.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-07-2015 05:31 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492711)
Oy. Testilying by police officers -- a how-to guide.
This is a good read. Thanks.

TM

Sidd Finch 01-07-2015 05:34 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492708)
Does it matter whether I'm dealing with the Governor's daughter, who started on 3rd base, or some kid from the Bronx who started someplace far from the stadium?
Does the governor's daughter have nice tits?

taxwonk 01-07-2015 05:57 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 492743)
Does the governor's daughter have nice tits?
They're real and they're spectacular

Hank Chinaski 01-07-2015 09:11 PM
Re: I think it wants people to stop talking about "big data."
 
must. resist. posting.

Adder 01-07-2015 09:12 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492735)
So what you are telling me is that it collects absolutely everything. Period. For every purpose.
No, what I'm telling you is it collects everything ORrelies only on those things that have predictive value.

No one doing data analysis is going to just use whatever Bubba from accounting thinks has value unless Bubba can use the data to show it has value.

The selection issue you are harping on just isn't a real issue.

That our entire society is built on inequality is.

taxwonk 01-07-2015 09:14 PM
Re: It was HAL 9000!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492746)
No, what I'm telling you is it collects everything ORrelies only on those things that have predictive value.

No one doing data analysis is going to just use whatever Bubba from accounting thinks has value unless Bubba can use the data to show it has value.

The selection issue you are harping on just isn't a real issue.

That our entire society is built on inequality is.
That seems very counterintuitive, but I don't know anything so I will take your word for it.

taxwonk 01-08-2015 12:41 PM
Off with Their Heads!
 
There's this.

But then, that's why we refused to become a signatory on the ICJ. We knew this would be the outcome, and we were just saying "fuck you" in advance.

Adder 01-08-2015 01:36 PM
Re: Off with Their Heads!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492756)
There's this.

But then, that's why we refused to become a signatory on the ICJ. We knew this would be the outcome, and we were just saying "fuck you" in advance.
Or we feared that some ambitious German (or whatever) would do this even without the obvious war crimes that were committed here.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-08-2015 01:51 PM
Re: Off with Their Heads!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492756)
There's this.

But then, that's why we refused to become a signatory on the ICJ. We knew this would be the outcome, and we were just saying "fuck you" in advance.
We might want to move such cases to the ICC rather than have them heard in, say, Mongolia or Yemen at some point in the future.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-08-2015 04:00 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Terrorism works.

Adder 01-08-2015 04:50 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492765)
Well said.

Adder 01-08-2015 05:42 PM
So, New Yorkers
 
How do you feel about the police work slowdown?

Does it make any difference?

taxwonk 01-08-2015 06:10 PM
Re: Off with Their Heads!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492759)
We might want to move such cases to the ICC rather than have them heard in, say, Mongolia or Yemen at some point in the future.
Ah, but to have a say, we really should be a signatory.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-08-2015 06:25 PM
Re: So, New Yorkers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492768)
How do you feel about the police work slowdown?

Does it make any difference?
Sounds like yes.

Icky Thump 01-08-2015 06:35 PM
Re: So, New Yorkers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492768)
How do you feel about the police work slowdown?

Does it make any difference?
Just need a crack resurgence to bring real estate prices down.

Icky Thump 01-08-2015 06:38 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492765)
Sorry, moderate islam is to blame. If you fail to opt out of that fairy tale nonsense, you're as to blame as the guy with the gun.

taxwonk 01-08-2015 06:48 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 492772)
Sorry, moderate islam is to blame. If you fail to opt out of that fairy tale nonsense, you're as to blame as the guy with the gun.
Tim McVeigh had God on his side, too.

Icky Thump 01-08-2015 06:49 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492773)
Tim McVeigh had God on his side, too.
His was as bad as theirs.

Icky Thump 01-08-2015 06:53 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 492774)
His was as bad as theirs.
Actually, I take that back. There's plenty of out cry against this nonsense, just not enough.

http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...t-cartoon.html

And wait a second Tim McVeigh reportedly abandoned religion before the bombings. So I guess we can just blame that on being nuts.

Sidd Finch 01-08-2015 07:11 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 492775)
Actually, I take that back. There's plenty of out cry against this nonsense, just not enough.

http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...t-cartoon.html

And wait a second Tim McVeigh reportedly abandoned religion before the bombings. So I guess we can just blame that on being nuts.
This, I like:

I call on Muslims to stage demonstrations that denounce this aggression. I urge Muslim Imams and leaders to take all the necessary actions to denounce the incident, to reassure the Europe community, to actively participate in protecting Europe media institutions against any threat and to denounce extremism and terror.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-08-2015 07:11 PM
Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icky Thump (Post 492772)
Sorry, moderate islam is to blame. If you fail to opt out of that fairy tale nonsense, you're as to blame as the guy with the gun.
I think I would disagree with you if I understood what you meant.


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