Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Muslims don't blow up buses. People blow up buses. Just like you aren't a pedophile, some bad men who happened to be priests were pedophiles. 3G doesn't need to apologize for terrorists in the MENA any more than you need to apologize for Bishop X liking to suck young boy cock.

I shouldn't have to be explaining this to anybody here.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I know you're ribbing me, but I figured I'd say this anyway. When you post something about race, joke or not, it often makes me think about something specific--an experience I or someone I know has been through or something I've seen in the news lately that's bothersome--and I kind of go off on a tangent about it. I don't want people thinking that they're constantly offending me. I know talking about race gets touchy, but I would always rather people feel comfortable talking about their opinions and observations than trying to be apologetic, to appease me or to be overly careful about my feelings.

If someone made a joke about me being an angry black man and I said that the joke is kind of tired because it's such a lame stereotype that plays off of the myth that black people are overly sensitive all the time, I'd rather talk about why the stereotype is lame and what the sensitivity may be based on than have someone back off of it because they think I'm offended.

Maybe that's why I like Bill Maher. He seems to prefer to talk about shit that people normally want to steer clear of. Also, he thinks Republicans are either stupid or completely full of shit.

TM

Re: My Fucking God
 

I don't see this. I don't know what you're talking about.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I believe all Sebby was saying is that the people best positioned to stop Priests from doing more sex crimes is the Priesthood. It's why we cannot write off all Priests (although I could live with that), or all muslims- they are the only solution.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

In the past we have assigned people having trouble fitting in here a mentor. PM if you are interested.

Re: My Fucking God
 

I hate to cite to Fox News, but, here

On the other hand, the Pew Research Center maintains that Christians are the largest religious group.

The Vatican seems to think that the Muslims still have the top spot.

I prefer to think you were actually talking about the numbers and I'm not whiffing. If I am whiffing, well, Selah.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Some Catholic priests abused children. The Catholic church moved the priests around when it became a problem, tried to cover it up, and fought and yelled and screamed the whole time it was being uncovered. That's a problem. And when Catholics become apologists for what their church is responsible for and do not hold them to account, it is perfectly fair to criticize them for that.

Some Mullahs use Islam to justify acts of violence and incite people to commit acts of terrorism. I don't think we would argue much over the misogyny in Islam (http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/201...ogynistic.html). Why is not okay to criticize muslims for these things?

In neither case is anyone saying ALL CATHOLICS ARE OKAY WITH PEDOPHILES or ALL MUSLIMS THINK A DISOBEDIENT WIFE SHOULD BE BEATEN. But tell me exactly how you're supposed to frame a conversation about the things that one finds offensive about certain segments of the religion without being accused of labeling every person in the religion.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Good one.

TM

Re: My Fucking God
 

Yo, I feel like you're just saying shit. You said some of us are painting the entire religion with one broad brush. That's bullshit. No one here is doing that. The size of the religion is completely irrelevant.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You're missing what I'm saying.

I'm not defending Catholicism. I'm also not telling someone criticizing it that he can't appear at my graduation as speaker. I am also not accusing any critic of racism or ethnic insensitivity for stating a fact.

We can attack Maher for his opinions. But when he says Islam has a problem, which is the claim that landed him in hot water here, he's stating facts. The best anyone can offer to that is, "Keep the facts to yourself. I don't like hearing them." Berkeley may do that, which is their right.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I don't have the energy.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Personally, I would start by noting that the same misogyny appears in the sacred texts of all the Abrahamic religions and note that the vast majority of adherents today acknowledge that the ancient world was a very misogynist place and all of the males in the human race tended toward it. Then, I would observe that most people currently occupying the planet now view that as a mistake and no longer hold such beliefs. Then I would limit my observations to certain clusters of people within a given faith.

But, yeah, by excusing Maher, who was saying exactly that ALL MUSLIMS THINK A DISOBEDIENT WIFE SHOULD BE BEATEN, you were saying it. Go back and read your posts. Read with a careful eye. You were excusing his saying that. You were also saying that it was part of the culture. What culture? The culture of the Uighurs in China? The culture of the Tamils in South India? The culture of the Muslims in Detroit?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Again, what Islam? With millions of adherents all over the globe, what particular group of Muslims are you talking about? See, I can't tell because your comment swept in all of them.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Stop being a pest.

What I wrote is a fact. If in a debate such as those hosted by Maher, a Black guest was confronted with the statement, "Statistically, young black males are involved in more crime than other groups," it would not be met with, "Racist!" It would be met with, "That's a fact. However, the reason for that is because in many instances, our law enforcement targets Black youth. Black youth has also been historically at disadvantages which tend to increase involvement in crime. And the Drug War is basically a pretext to engage in mass jailing of minorities."

Nothing in this exchange is racist. (In fact, I think I've seen that exact exchange on Maher, several times. [I've watch him without fail, every week, since he's been on HBO.])

I know you want to get in your little PC licks during this discussion. You want to support what you think it is your role here to support. But this shit is a simple matter of logic. Say something that adds to the debate or find another board on which to be an insipid pest.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Actually, it was pre-9/11. YMMV, but the very few conversations about this sort of thing that I had with anyone with any middle eastern lineage, and any number of other people, in the months after 9/11 were so god-awful I avoided the subject like the plague thereafter.

You have to understand that the Bay Area, or parts of it, are just "different," and more so back then. I actually had people -- reasonably intelligent people, but with a misguided view of what being "progressive" should mean -- essentially suggest that blowing up the WTC wasn't all that bad, because look at what the companies in those buildings did. Not to mention the "but we support Israel, so...." types of comments.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I don't have to apologize for the Catholic Church's actions over the centuries, and I have never expected my Muslim friends to apologize for the conduct of their co-religionists. "Apologies" are not at all what I'm talking about.

I do not defend the Catholic Church's conduct. I do not offer any words of defense or mitigation for the slaughter of children. That is what I am talking about.

And I'm sorry, but you are full of shit and you know it. You say "some bad men who happened to be priests were pedophiles." Bullshit. A significant number of men who happened to be priests were pedophiles -- and the fucking Catholic Church closed ranks around them and protected them. That is a very different thing than what you are saying, and you believe me, not you.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Islam - ALL of Islam - has a problem in that it has a disproportionate number of loathsome fanatics using it as a basis to engage in horrible acts.

It's not Islam's fault. And the statement, "Islam has a problem" does not mean the religion is fundamentally flawed. It means exactly what it says. "Islam, you have a problem on your hands." Exactly the same way the Catholic Church has a problem on its hands.

I'm not blaming. I'm just noting a fact. As was Maher.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Careful, you may get my proxy on this.

Does anyone on this board have trouble with the statement that, for example, white people often say racist shit about black people, much of it subtle and insidious, and other white people should call them on it and not treat it as acceptable or they are part of the problem?

Or, men do things to harass women, many of which are subtle and are things that our fathers' generations thought were just fine -- whistles, catcalls, elevator stares at women in the workplace, etc. -- and other men should not just not do that, but be open about saying it's wrong, or they are part of the problem?

The argument that only a few Arabs do/believe x or a few Muslims do/believe y allows you (not you you, but "you") to ignore when many people support, vocally or silently, those actions or beliefs.

In the same way that saying "a few men who happened to be priests molested children" ignores that those "few men" had the support of a powerful institution, and a culture that institution influences, that should have behaved very differently.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

If we are talking about the Muslim world, then I do not agree with you that the "vast majority of adherents," or anywhere near enough people, acknowledge and reject misogynism or paternalism. If you are limiting your statement to American muslims, you are probably right.


If Maher said that -- "All ..." -- he's a douchebag. I'm really not interested in debating whether Maher is an asshole or not, as I don't watch his show(except occasional snippets when surfing). I saw a bit of the Affleck discussion, and what little I could listen to above the yelling left me pretty disgusted with Maher. But so what? The broader discussion is what interests me.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Americans, ALL Americans, once condoned slavery, allowed the Japanese on the West Coast to be put in concentration camps, and have a disproportionate number of people who believe it's okay to protect Christian fundamentalism to the detriment of all other faiths.

So what you're saying is that it isn't the people. It's the institution. Okay. And how exactly does the institution do these horrible things? You now want to cleave the signifier from the signified. I call bullshit. Islam doesn't go through the security line at the airport, any more than Blacks as a group drive a particular car. Maher was saying it's okay to treat people a certain way based on their affiliation or commonality of a single characteristic.

Slice it and dice it any way you want. It's still bullshit. And that's not blaming. It's just a fact.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Your problem with Obamacare is with the Cadillac tax, as I understand it. I've never understood why you think your experience -- or the experience of the people who work at your firm -- is typical of the middle class, or why one should think that all of the other advantages of Obamacare for the middle class are somehow outweighed by what your employees are going through, apart from the obvious fact that you are an Everyman, an Average Joe, the paradigmatic American, given that you are from Michigan and all.

I have two friends, one from college and one from law school, who have had breast cancer in the last several years. One has just had a recurrence. But not for Obamacare, they would be uninsurable, and so would their kids.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

The Muslims occupy the same world we do. And they are spread out over most of it. What world do you mean when you say the Muslim world?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I haven no idea if its a fact and neither do you. There is simply no way to tell in the midst of a system that targets black youths and ignores other groups. In a system of explicitly or implicitly racist drug laws.

But as I said, I don't have the energy. I'm sure Ta-Nehisi Coates has written something directly on point, but I'm not going to spend any time searching for it. But you could start here and here.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

No one is talking about ancient times. We are talkign about the modern application of ancient ideas about how women should be treated. Therefor, the only thing of value in this paragraph is your last sentence. But I would hope that you put some meat on the bones of those "clusters of people" because, although it may not be all or the vast majority, it's a large number of people. And in those cases, it is also institutional.

No. I'm not going back to re-read what I said, douchebag. I know what I said. You go back and re-read it. I am not excusing any of the ignorant shit he says. But I am permitting him to criticize those aspects of the religion and culture that are problematic. Read the salon article I posted. If you and Greedy think he has completely conflated heinous acts performed in the name of religion with Arabs as a race such that he is a racist, then we disagree.

And let's take Sebby's example of crime in black neighborhoods for a minute. If he and I were talking and he said, "The black community sure seems to have an issue with violence," I would say, "Sure. But let's look at the reasons behind that and the outside forces that have shaped those communities to what they've become." If you want to discuss the forces that are causing certain mullahs to preach violence and misognyny, let's do it. But stop acting like I am (or anyone else is) trying to make the argument that Arabs are inherently bad people or Islam is a fucked up religion. That shit isn't happening.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Two thoughts, neither in the spirit of disagreement:

(1) As a category, "culture" is a really hard one to try to explain things with, because everything is cultural. Except needing a certain amount of food and water to live, and a few other things. Culture explains too much.

(2) During World War II, Americans had certain stereotypical views of Japanese. Those who had been to college tended to express these views in terms of "national character." Those who hadn't tended to express these same views in terms of race. Were only the latter racist? I don't think so.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Those are problems we still have on our hands. All of us. That we weren't involved doesn't undo the fact that, if we're Americans, those are problems with which we'll contend. Racism and religious idiocy are still very much with us.

No I'm not. I'm saying the institution has a problem on its hands. I specifically denied that it caused the problem.

I agree. That's why I said Islam is not at fault. But this doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem on its hands. For whatever reason, as the Catholic Church attracted pedophiles, Islam is attracting bloodthirsty lunatics.

No, he wasn't. He was saying it's okay to be wary of certain people based on those characteristics, until they've proven such concern is unwarranted. I do not agree with him there, but I also do not see that as rooted in racism so much as paranoid logic.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You fucking little pest. I incorporated the caveat that Blacks are targeted, and that the system seeks to jail them - which... wait for it (and insert Lewis Black exasperated affectation here): Explains the fucking disproportionate crime rate!

Can you read, or does the little, "I have to say something in opposition here" gene that rules your brain take over in every instance?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Oh.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Well, looks like a lovely shitstorm, and I'll come back later and try to engage along the way, but am dealing with another lovely shitstorm, so have limited time today.

But let me pose a little question, and I'll caveat it by saying I got no gripes with anyone here at all on race and nothing is intended to imply so. Here's my question. The thesis apparently is that Islam is bad to the bone, worse than any other religion. How do we test that? Do you look at places where Islam coexists with another religion, and see which is worst? If you do that, you start weeding out issues that, for example, might relate to being an oil autocracy as opposed to what religion people practice. So, say, if you look at Israel and the occupied territories - do more Jews die at the hands of Muslims or more Muslims at the hand of Jews? How about Bosnia or Kosovo? India, where you've got the loony Hinduvatta to offset the loons from Islam? Each is a place where there is a virulent strain of violent radical Islam, but each is also a place where there are some other very bad people around who belong to other religions. There are other cases, as well, but let me say, I don't see the clear pattern here that one would expect if Islam is truly especially evil. Indeed, I don't see a pattern relating to religion at all in comparing those countries.

Let me know if you see a better way to test the hypothesis.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

So, to sum up, it seems that each and every one of us here believes that it is okay to criticize the problems occurring in any one religion with the understanding that it is clearly ridiculous to paint the entire religion with that brush of criticism. But we're hung up on Bill Maher because sometimes he:

(i) crosses the line and doesn't make it sufficiently clear that he recognizes that 99.99% of those practicing Islam aren't a danger;
(ii) wants to debate the significance of polls that suggest that a large number of muslims are okay with some shit that we may find problematic; or
(iii) thinks that it seems more reasonable to stop an armed Arab man at an airport to verify that he is not a threat than to treat everyone like a potential terrorist?

I think the third point above is ridiculous given the wide array of races that adhere to extremist ideas, and he and King set up the issue in a way that doesn't make much sense other than to be provocative. I can easily disagree with him on this and not ignore everything else he has to say for all of eternity.

In fact, I do this all the time with people I actually know. You should hear some of the shit people I think are otherwise good people say. I (sometimes calmly) let them know that I don't agree with the ignorant bullshit they're spewing, but I don't eliminate them from my life. I'd rather they hear another perspective and think about it from my point of view than just shun them. Hell, lots of people end up changing the way they think about things when they have access to someone with different ideas.

In Maher's case, I think because of his ego he thinks his mission is to change other people's minds, but he's not closed off to changing his. He has the conversation regularly. And in many cases I've seen him move away from an opinion towards a different one--sometimes over time, sometimes based on a convincing argument. Isn't that the point of any of this shit?

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Just to add to this, you have these two Canadians recently who converted to Islam and then killed soldiers. Naturally, the coverage calls this Islamic terrorism. But doesn't it seem more likely that you have a couple of individuals who are troubled in some way that doesn't have much to do with their religious views, and that whatever is driving them is responsible both for the conversion and their crimes? In the same way, troubled young men in this country engage in mass shootings because that mode of acting out has been modeled for them.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Being a loser magnet is another of Islam's problems. Again, not the religion's fault.

But it's also a recognition from which we can address the real problem here: That hopeless young men are using a religion as a basis to kill in large part because of US policies, and their own corrupt governments, which rob them of the ability to have productive lives.

However, if we are honest about the reason these men are desperate, Wahhabist Islam and other fundamentalist variants used by vile regimes like the Saudi Royals are a major cause.

But then, that too comes back to the US. We prop the Saudis, the Saudis keep the masses in check with Wahhabism. Logically, we then support the thing that's been used as doctrine to justify attacks on us.

Like Islam, we've got a problem on our hands. Only we caused ours.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say this is one of Islam's problems. Are you saying that something intrinsic to Islamic beliefs is attractive to troubled young men and drives them to violence, or are you saying that Islamic leaders, like the CEOs of gun companies, have a PR problem with troubled young men use their product to kill people?

I was just talking about Canadian converts to Islam, but I don't think you have Ontario or Quebec in mind when you talk about their corrupt governments. Agree that religion can be the veneer on other problems, but if so, why talk about the veneer and not the underlying structures? If you have termites, you don't change the wallpaper.

Please explain. Fundamentalist Islam is a major cause of what? How?

If you took Saudi Arabia and changed the religion to Judaism or Lutheranism, would it really make a difference? Why do you think the religious beliefs are the cause rather than a symptom?

Re: Is Bill Maher Satan? Discuss.
 

I'm not sure I understand the point of this exercise. Let's take a look at Bill Maher, who seems to be the source of the confusion.

* Bill Maher thinks all religions are stupid because followers believe, without any evidence, that there is a force that is invested in and sometimes controls what happens with people.

* Bill Maher thinks Islam is the worst of the religions because of all the reasons above plus he thinks it is most likely to be used by extremists to justify some truly heinous shit. And he constantly wants to discuss why some muslims who aren't considered to be extremists support some of the extremist's heinous actions.

I don't think anyone on this board thinks Islam is bad to the bone. I don't think Bill Maher believes that either.

I think that religious fervor is to blame for lots of crazy shit and the more looney you--meaning an area or a state--get about religion, the worse it is for the people who live there. That applies to any religion. Because throughout the course of history, it seems fairly clear that people who want shit to be the way they like it will use religion to justify it. And the more isolated religious people are, the more extreme and the less tolerant people get.

My current theory on why shit is so bad in this country has to do with the fact that so many areas outside the cities and suburbs are so heavily religious and intolerant that people who have any sense at all move to be with more open-minded people who don't believe the Bible is literal or gays should be converted or other races were put on this earth to serve you. The more those people leave those areas, the worse those areas become. At a certain point the lunatics way outnumber the sensible and the sensible are then actively driven out. The schools become churches, the textbooks are re-written, the laws change, and it starts looking closer to what we imagine when we think of the craziest Islamic theocracies than it does to what we imagine as America. Sprinkle that with some oil money, place some other hyper-religious group that you disagree with the next county over, and grant easy access to weapons, and you've got the places in the Middle East that are the most oppressive and/or dangerous.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Sure,they were nuts. But even in that example why move to Islam? Why not turn Hassidim then kill? Your last sentence seems to acknowledge at least a perception that as Muslims the acts will curry favor. And for those with reading problems- I am not saying the Islamic conversion made them killers. But they seem to have some belief that there is something in the religion that appeals to them.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Israel is a bad example as it is an active conflict. The better test there might be "who follows truces better?" (and I'm not taken a position on what the answer to that question is) Can we relace it with ISIS exterminating sects in Iraq?

It isn't the religion and most Muslims we would meet (in the US) are divorced from the rabid. But there surely does seem to be some nuttiness in some other places.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

A few things:

1. What is it about Islam that drives young, pissed off men to become radical Muslims who want to commit acts of violence in the name of religion, especially if they are in Canada or the US?
2. What is it about Lutheranism that does not attract young, pissed off men to become radical Lutherans who want to commit acts of violence in the name of religion, no matter where they are located?

Surely the answers are heavily complicated and cannot be achieved without studying how the religions evolved, geo-political history, who is currently manipulating the religions and why, why young, pissed off men are drawn to some things in some places and not others, etc.

TM

smile!!!
 

One of the reasons I like to bring my thurgreed sock here from time to time is to see libs fighting each, and telling each other how bullshit their arguing styles are. The very same things I get called a troll for pointing out about the apparent logic problems and, frankly, synapse gaps that several of you bring to your arguments you point out to each other.

My favorite exchange ever was T and Ty arguing Yankees/Red Sox and EVERYTHING I had ever pointed out about Ty's style, T mentioned. It. Was. Sublime. Surreal.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Without really knowing the details, I think you had disaffected men who both turned to an extremist strand of Islam and killed people because they were disaffected. I don't understand the "as Muslims the acts will curry favor" point. Favor with whom? Do you think those two were really motivated by a desire to score points with Jehovah? With Islamic radicals elsewhere? I can't rule it out, but I doubt it.

As to your question, why radical Islam instead of radical Judaism, I think that's like asking why teenage mass-shooters keep using guns instead of derailing trains or driving cars into people or devising novel ways to kill a bunch of people. The answer is availability. If you're a disaffected idiot in Ontario, you're more likely to know about radical Islam as an outlet then Hassidism.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I agree with that they came to whatever involvement they had with the religion murderous and crazy. My only question is why they thought there was a benefit to them in joining the religion.