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-   -   I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879)

sebastian_dangerfield 05-16-2016 02:03 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
The problem is most people complaining about people complaining about microagressions are really looking to trivialize complaints they don't like.

Or, to think of it another way, if someone finds themselves agreeing too much with Donald Trump, maybe it's time for them to question their beliefs instead of trying to match his volume level?
That's a fair point. A lot of "conservatives" do want to find any basis they can to trivialize real racial issues.

I'm not one of them. I favor slapping the white guy blathering about how we're "focusing too much on race," then turning and slapping the probably white kid whining about how he needs a safe space because certain forms of protected free expression upset him. Call me a reasonable, surly moderate.

sebastian_dangerfield 05-16-2016 02:07 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 501010)
Here's the thing, most of these folks get their wardrobe with the advice of media consultants. The way they dress is what appeals to their constituencies. Obama in particular was taught to dress down, and Hillary has to dress in a way that makes her the candidate and not the first lady (of whom more fashion is expected).

Stripes in suits play games in front of cameras. Since the camera operator is often happy to make politicians look silly (as opposed to the actor or actress sporting stripes), no politician should ever wear them. Ever.
The consultants have been spot-on this year, no?

British politicians have historically worn stripes. And higher definition TVs are eliminating that problem.

And none of this excuses the lack of tailoring. Particularly for Bush and Obama, who are both slim.

ThurgreedMarshall 05-16-2016 02:48 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 501008)
I'm not saying they should stop their belly aching. I'm saying it should not be considered alongside the other more acute issues.



If you think I was saying that, you misread me. (See below).



No I haven't. Flagging the subtle racism permeating our society is valid. But racism is a unique thing. Nobody in his right mind would begrudge a black person for complaining about the way he's treated. But would I begrudge some spoiled college kid who wants a "safe space" because she cannot bear to hear about domestic violence in a seminar because her aunt was in a verbally abusive relationship? All day long.

I hear very little discussion of microagressions regarding racism. Why? Because that's a real aggression. The microaggressions I read about (in the Times, WaPo; not the Journal, or Fox) are frivolous.



I wouldn't call that microaggression. I'd call that general, societal racism.



Maybe I'm just getting hung up on terminology, but again, what you're describing is something I don't think of as microagression. The sort of trivial complaints one hears about in discussions of microagressions are nothing like the substantial complaint you raise: Society is still largely built for whites, and subtly and not so subtly continues to discriminate against blacks.



I've never shut off about racism. But I think there's a need to look at complaints individually and separate the frivolous from the serious. Racism is never frivolous. In that regard, I don't even think it should be considered to fall under a category with a weak name like "microagression."
I would go into why microaggressions fall into many different categories, including race, and I could address how and why people trivialize and categorize these things (and purposefully lump them in to this general idea that PC is out of control) in order to dismiss them, but I'm tired of this topic.

TM

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-16-2016 04:44 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 501013)
The consultants have been spot-on this year, no?

British politicians have historically worn stripes. And higher definition TVs are eliminating that problem.

And none of this excuses the lack of tailoring. Particularly for Bush and Obama, who are both slim.
When I was in politics and rules chair of the state convention, I wore a rather smashing dashiki for the task. Not everyone can carry this off, and so the less adventurous wear "suits". Once they're a stiff in a suit, though, it's all lost anyways, so what does the tailoring matter.

On a separate fashion topic, what do you think of the facial hair of this neo-nazi crazy? I mean, I understand retro, but this seems to take it way too far.

SEC_Chick 05-16-2016 05:59 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501014)
I would go into why microaggressions fall into many different categories, including race, and I could address how and why people trivialize and categorize these things (and purposefully lump them in to this general idea that PC is out of control) in order to dismiss them, but I'm tired of this topic.

TM
I kind of agree with Thurgreed on this one. I have seen far more racism, misogyny and anti-Semitism since Trump has brought them out of the woodwork (see Breitbart headline calling Bill Kristol a "Renegade Jew" for advocating a conservative 3rd party option). I know they were always there, but it is pretty darn hard to miss now.

As to Sebby's point, pandering to college students who need to color and pet kittens to get through finals seems more than a tad counter productive. And I think adults should be able to read and discuss literature without a trigger warning. I am a full advocate of free speech, which is becoming more and more scarce at campuses. It's the view common among millenials that they have the right to not be offended by anything that is worrisome to me, but that is quite apart from racism and sexism, no matter how they are expressed. As offensive as some speech is, or should be to any decent person, the antidote is more speech, not less.

I did vote in the R primary runoff today. In many respects this runoff determines the winner more than the general election, at least for statewide races. Even a dumbass R will win statewide races, as RT has said before (BTW, I voted against Ken Paxton in the primary and his runoff) and RR Commission is a fairly important office.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-16-2016 06:02 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 501016)
I kind of agree with Thurgreed on this one. I have seen far more racism, misogyny and anti-Semitism since Trump has brought them out of the woodwork (see Breitbart headline calling Bill Kristol a "Renegade Jew" for advocating a conservative 3rd party option). I know they were always there, but it is pretty darn hard to miss now.

As to Sebby's point, pandering to college students who need to color and pet kittens to get through finals seems more than a tad counter productive. And I think adults should be able to read and discuss literature without a trigger warning. I am a full advocate of free speech, which is becoming more and more scarce at campuses. It's the view common among millenials that they have the right to not be offended by anything that is worrisome to me, but that is quite apart from racism and sexism, no matter how they are expressed. As offensive as some speech is, or should be to any decent person, the antidote is more speech, not less.

I did vote in the R primary runoff today. In many respects this runoff determines the winner more than the general election, at least for statewide races. Even a dumbass R will win statewide races, as RT has said before (BTW, I voted against Ken Paxton in the primary and his runoff) and RR Commission is a fairly important office.
We are seeing some true colors these days. I find myself liking Lindsay Graham more than I ever expected to, while the Johns Huntsman and McCain are falling in my regard.

notcasesensitive 05-17-2016 01:48 AM
Hot Dog
 
I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-17-2016 01:07 PM
Re: Hot Dog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notcasesensitive (Post 501026)
I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...
There is a man whose time would be best used shutting up and just supporting his wife.

On another front, can we make the finger wagging stop now? Please? Oregon, Kentucky, I'm lookin at you.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 01:52 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 500957)
Right. I've burned about 100,000 characters insulting Ted Cruz and Trump. But it's clear my insulting of Hillary is misogyny.

You're being a cultural Timmy here, and a Trump enabler. You know I'm neither sexist nor xenophobic nor racist. We've known each other here quite long enough to establish that. And I know you're not really a "hall monitor" type on these sorts of issues. Yet you flagged me here, and I think the reason you did so is twofold:

1. Score points. It was an easy shot. Fair enough.
2. Because you've fallen a bit into the silly use of all the new "victim language" being thrown around in recent years.

The second thing's important because a good bit of it is causing the nauseating backlash we see embodied in Trump. The more people see misogyny in everything, discrimination everywhere, and rail against things like "microaggressions," the more Trumpkins return the fire with truly offensive responses.

Look, I get that we're at one of these "inflection points" where everybody's a victim, and everybody else has "privilege," etc. These cycles come around every now and again. But throwing around accusations of misogyny, racism, xenophobia too frequently has a "boy who cried wolf" effect. Things like Ferguson and criminal justice reform - serious shit that needs to be addressed - are forgotten, or attacked by the Right (and Middle) as part of a childish "left wing agenda."

Not every nasty comment is sexist, or racist, or xenophobic. And the funniest shit usually walks a fine line with being offensive, or truly stinging the target. Lighten up, and train your fire on the targets worthy of it.
Really? I didn't mind it at all. I assumed it was all just good fun.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 01:54 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 500958)
This is bullshit victim blaming. It's literally, "stop standing up for your rights or you're going to make someone bad take them away."
"Victim blaming?"

I'm sorry, when did you stop being a white, upper middle class male?

ThurgreedMarshall 05-17-2016 02:38 PM
Re: Hot Dog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notcasesensitive (Post 501026)
I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...
He'd be better served to become someone's chief of staff. Unfortunately, he's too in love with the cameras.

TM

SEC_Chick 05-17-2016 03:14 PM
Re: Hot Dog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notcasesensitive (Post 501026)
I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...
After the John Miller nonsense last week, I was hoping for a bi-partisan John Miller/Carlos Danger ticket. That would be awesome.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 03:18 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 500970)
Here's the thing on this topic...and I'll say it knowing full well you're not going to hear it (whether it's intentional or not, I'll let you decide):

Bill Maher is guilty of this and, since you're 1:1 with him on this, so are you.
  1. The idea that people who suffer from relatively less important unequal and unfair treatment--relative to life-threatening issues like police brutality and the existence of police black sites, etc.--should stop their belly-achin' is fucking ridiculous. It's the same as when I hear people tell me that successful blacks should stop complaining because they have it good when compared to those who are truly suffering. And I hear this shit constantly (e.g., "I'm sick of these black millionaire actors complaining about the lack of roles/nominations/equal treatment in pay. Black people are dying in the streets!" or "Hey, Thurgreed, you have it good. You're a partner at an international law firm. No one wants to hear about your lack of access to clients/leadership positions at the firm/equal treatment in pay! Most black people don't make anywhere near what you do!").

    This type of shit is infuriating. And minorities have been hearing it for centuries at every level of "achievement." House slaves should stop complaining, they have it good, compared to field slaves. Free blacks should stop complaining because at least they're not slaves. Blacks should stop complaining about separate facilities since it wasn't that long ago they weren't allowed anywhere. Blacks should stop complaining about poor job/education/living conditions, things are getting better. On and on and on.

    Why should anyone at any level settle for less than they deserve because there are bigger problems in the world? It's the most illogical, bullshit, misdirection to keep things the way they are for as long as possible by those who benefit-tactic going. And I see it a lot. Don't be that jackass.
  2. You have bought in completely to the narrative pushed by small-minded assholes who can't be bothered to treat people with respect and therefore actively lump in the ridiculous instances of the "PC police gone wild" with all other legitimate instances of discrimination so that they can shoo it all away.

    The prominence of stories of people who are so far past the extreme on the PC spectrum is fun to read about, but holy shit. Comedians not being able to make borderline jokes on campus is stupid and wrong, but the fact that I read about that and stories of PC police shutting down some professor who just wants kids to be allowed to make offensive Halloween costume mistakes <sniff.> all the damn time and then have to listen to someone talk about that stuff like the inconvenience of either of those things amounts to an out-of-control PC world is fucking ridiculous.
  3. The ridicule of microaggressions is something only people who generally don't give a shit about how people expect to be treated engage in. I went to a small liberal arts school in the Midwest. I was one of maybe 50 black people on a campus of 2,000. And let me tell you something, microaggressions (although we didn't have a word for it back then) is fucking real and it's tiring. Trust me. To this day, where I am one of two black people at a ~200 person firm, having to navigate an environment designed by and for white people is exhausting. The microaggressions I experience are real and they wear on you. Just because I don't complain to you about them doesn't mean they don't exist. So when you hear about them, why not listen and think about what you might do to recognize when you're participating rather than bitch about something else that's too PC.

    Anyone who shuts off because they've heard the buzzword too often and thinks it's boring or annoying having to listen to people complain about it needs some perspective. And quite often, it's these assholes who can't fucking deal and throw the biggest fits if they believe they've been overlooked or slighted somehow. It's just amazing.

TM
Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.

I understand and see everything you are saying. What I don't understand is how I am supposed to react to this white privilege on an every day level. I am conscious of, and make react to people and make choices in such a way as to recognize the inherent racism in my actions in commerce and social interactions.

But what about how people react to me? Am I supposed to turn down an engagement because in a more just world more opportunities would be offered to black females? The particular engagement I am being offered will not be used to try and achieve more balance if I decline it. It will go to another white male, because those are the people my client knows. If I am in the grocery store and a black man defers to me in line at the cashier (which happens in Georgia and it disgusts me) what can I do other than telling the person to go ahead in front of me, which he won't. He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.

Knowing I enjoy a certain privilege does not necessarily equate to me always being able to neutralize it. I can be sympathetic to your situation, but I cannot change it and I don't understand why or how I should put myself at a disadvantage when that action will not do anything to help equalize the imbalance, other than possibly having me put myself at a disadvantage just to offset the cosmic imbalance.

I can use the black handyman instead of some white guy who gets more work. Am I supposed to break more shit in order to make sure the black guy gets additional work?

I'm not being sarcastic, and I am not making light of what I agree is the existing climate. But I can't really do a lot to make the world less racist or sexist. All I can do is try to be less racist or sexist myself, and I feel at times some people want to me to feel that is not enough.

SEC_Chick 05-17-2016 03:20 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
To file under news to no one who has spent 5 minutes on FB or Twitter in the past year, a new poll shows that Trump supporters are most likely to self-identify as racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b060aa781b32ce

Sidd Finch 05-17-2016 03:27 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 501037)
To file under news to no one who has spent 5 minutes on FB or Twitter in the past year, a new poll shows that Trump supporters are most likely to self-identify as racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b060aa781b32ce


I was going to say something like "nice party you've got there." But I'm sure that these attitudes have nothing to do with the active promoting of hatred towards Obama over the last eight years --- not policy disagreement, but actual hatred and accusations of intentionally undermining America.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 03:36 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 500987)
'I recalled a remark that the philosopher Richard Rorty made back in 1997 about “the old industrialized democracies…heading into a Weimar-like period.” Citing evidence from “many writers on socioeconomic policy,” Rorty suggested that

members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers—themselves desperately afraid of being downsized—are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for—someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots….

One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion…. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet.'

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016...Donald%20Trump
You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances. Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.

The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-17-2016 05:21 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501040)
You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances. Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.

The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.
Bernie's base is a bunch of middle aged white men and young college students who haven't been around long enough to actually have experience getting stuff done. They're high maintenance and self-congratulatory, but they're not the real change drivers.

Hillary's base is minorities, women, and all the folks who have actually driven progress over the years.

Whatever you think of the candidates, I like Hillary's core vote of women and minorities a lot more than Bernie's, and candidate do tend to respond to their base.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-17-2016 05:26 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
[QUOTE=taxwonk;501036]Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.


I think the being gracious to the guy being gracious to you in the check out line is a plus. Just being people counts.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 05:27 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 501043)
Bernie's base is a bunch of middle aged white men and young college students who haven't been around long enough to actually have experience getting stuff done. They're high maintenance and self-congratulatory, but they're not the real change drivers.

Hillary's base is minorities, women, and all the folks who have actually driven progress over the years.

Whatever you think of the candidates, I like Hillary's core vote of women and minorities a lot more than Bernie's, and candidate do tend to respond to their base.
That's a nice little bit of snark, but it in no way addresses the point I was making, which is that Hilary's big appeal is that she won't try to change things too drastically, so the sea change the author Thurgreed quoted as predicting is not likely to come.

taxwonk 05-17-2016 05:30 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 501046)
There is a core area where I can do something about privilege, my little bit: hiring and referrals. I checked myself yesterday sending out a referral, my first instinct was to send it to someone who looked like me, middle aged, white, who I'd swapped referrals with before. Yeah, that's how the system gets perpetuated. I gave them the names of a couple of my old associates, younger and more diverse.

Likewise, I have spent a ton of time in hiring processes where lots of little things add up to very direct white privilege. Someone bonds over their shares experiences in an ivy league frat, or over coming from the same lily white town, or any number of other little things.

What does it all add up to? Value working with all people, and don't just bond over white people's shit.
So you pretty much handle it the same way I do and there isn't really anything we can do as individuals to change this at the cultural/institutional level. We do what we can to act with good intent and good effect and we hope enough of us change enough that eventually the culture will shift in a more inclusive direction.

ThurgreedMarshall 05-17-2016 05:37 PM
Re: Hot Dog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 501035)
After the John Miller nonsense last week, I was hoping for a bi-partisan John Miller/Carlos Danger ticket. That would be awesome.
Why are you the first person saying this? This is awesome.

TM

Pretty Little Flower 05-17-2016 05:41 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Hi! Did you miss the Daily Dose? Who cares? Here is Rufus Thomas doing a couple of numbers live at the Wattstax festival in 1973, and leading one of the funkiest dance parties EVER.

EVER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCFyKRtlLOI

ThurgreedMarshall 05-17-2016 06:32 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501036)
Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.

I understand and see everything you are saying. What I don't understand is how I am supposed to react to this white privilege on an every day level. I am conscious of, and make react to people and make choices in such a way as to recognize the inherent racism in my actions in commerce and social interactions.

But what about how people react to me? Am I supposed to turn down an engagement because in a more just world more opportunities would be offered to black females? The particular engagement I am being offered will not be used to try and achieve more balance if I decline it. It will go to another white male, because those are the people my client knows. If I am in the grocery store and a black man defers to me in line at the cashier (which happens in Georgia and it disgusts me) what can I do other than telling the person to go ahead in front of me, which he won't. He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.

Knowing I enjoy a certain privilege does not necessarily equate to me always being able to neutralize it. I can be sympathetic to your situation, but I cannot change it and I don't understand why or how I should put myself at a disadvantage when that action will not do anything to help equalize the imbalance, other than possibly having me put myself at a disadvantage just to offset the cosmic imbalance.

I can use the black handyman instead of some white guy who gets more work. Am I supposed to break more shit in order to make sure the black guy gets additional work?

I'm not being sarcastic, and I am not making light of what I agree is the existing climate. But I can't really do a lot to make the world less racist or sexist. All I can do is try to be less racist or sexist myself, and I feel at times some people want to me to feel that is not enough.
No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:
  • for people to understand that those advantages exist
  • for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
  • for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
  • for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
  • for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
  • similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM

ThurgreedMarshall 05-17-2016 06:44 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501040)
You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances.
Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501040)
Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.
No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501040)
The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.
This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM

Sidd Finch 05-17-2016 06:45 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501052)
No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:
  • for people to understand that those advantages exist
  • for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
  • for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
  • for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
  • for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
  • similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM

It's posts like this that keep me coming back here.


At least, that's been the case since the whole "show your tits" phase ended.

Not Bob 05-17-2016 06:53 PM
Re: Hot Dog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501034)
He'd be better served to become someone's chief of staff. Unfortunately, he's too in love with the cameras.

TM
Great article/review of the movie from David Edelstein in the current New York Magazine. I had forgotten how well Weiner was doing in the NYC mayoral polls until part two of the scandal hit him.

Not Bob 05-17-2016 07:08 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501054)
Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM
Or, as our President put it in his commencement speech at Howard:

Quote:
And democracy requires compromise, even when you are 100 percent right. This is hard to explain sometimes. You can be completely right, and you still are going to have to engage folks who disagree with you. If you think that the only way forward is to be as uncompromising as possible, you will feel good about yourself, you will enjoy a certain moral purity, but you’re not going to get what you want. And if you don’t get what you want long enough, you will eventually think the whole system is rigged. And that will lead to more cynicism, and less participation, and a downward spiral of more injustice and more anger and more despair. And that's never been the source of our progress. That's how we cheat ourselves of progress.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...nscript-222931

Hank Chinaski 05-18-2016 12:01 AM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501036)
He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.
Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.

Pretty Little Flower 05-18-2016 08:46 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 501058)
Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.
Sometimes funk is not smooth or evolved or pretty. It's raw and dirty. Which is why it's called funk. Your Daily Dose is James Polk & the Brothers. Just Plain Funk. And it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhe9...166DE8BC1553E7

Hank Chinaski 05-18-2016 10:17 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 501070)
Sometimes funk is not smooth or evolved or pretty. It's raw and dirty. Which is why it's called funk.
NWTAF? I know to count my pussy. Ain't needing you to mansplain shit. I'm from the D bitch. here's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMTdR0ifnQ

taxwonk 05-19-2016 01:39 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501052)
No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:
  • for people to understand that those advantages exist
  • for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
  • for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
  • for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
  • for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
  • similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM
My response to Adder was ironic. And it was precisely got me thinking about this. And what I do every day in my life to recognize when I am thinking in a way that I have been programmed to think and the efforts I make to catch myself in that.

And it got me to question whether or not I am really doing enough. And. more important, it got me thinking about what I can do to do more. Which is what I thought had informed this post. Clearly, I have a way to go.

taxwonk 05-19-2016 02:30 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 501054)
Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM
Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.

taxwonk 05-19-2016 02:35 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 501058)
Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.
It's peace and love, on the surface. But I've discovered that all too often, peace is based on an implicit understanding that people know their place. I try to fight against that, but it's pretty hard-wired into too many people who grew up prior to the Civil Rights era, and they still aren't buying it.

I have yet to find evidence that they should in far more cases than I'm comfortable with.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-19-2016 03:12 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501073)
Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.
And what's the sea change you seek? Not long after I was born, John Lewis' head was being introduced to a cop's club in Selma; today he is being bashed as the "establishment" by a bunch of comfortable 40-something Bernie-Bros in the name of "Berning it down".

Put me down as being on John Lewis' side, whether you view him as establishment or revolutionary.

ThurgreedMarshall 05-19-2016 04:02 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501072)
My response to Adder was ironic. And it was precisely got me thinking about this. And what I do every day in my life to recognize when I am thinking in a way that I have been programmed to think and the efforts I make to catch myself in that.

And it got me to question whether or not I am really doing enough. And. more important, it got me thinking about what I can do to do more. Which is what I thought had informed this post. Clearly, I have a way to go.
Nah. You're no Tim Wise, but you'll do, my friend.

TM

ThurgreedMarshall 05-19-2016 04:09 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501073)
Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.
I just don't think that's true. Your view of the destruction of the financial system seems to be focused solely on what would happen at the top. Think of all the wealth destroyed by individual savers, 401ks, and pension funds. Think of the jobs lost and how long it would take to get those jobs back. Think about the swath of new poor in this country created by that chaos and how few resources would be available to help. Think about how this country would turn completely inward and the resulting suffering overseas.

Now think about the traction Bernie got this last election and think about how open people will be to his (or a similar) message next time. But that message can't just be aspirational. It has to be practical. That's what Bernie is missing. Next time, maybe he (or whoever) won't be.

TM

Pretty Little Flower 05-19-2016 08:20 PM
Re: Not Bob's new politics thread
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 501071)
NWTAF? I know to count my pussy. Ain't needing you to mansplain shit. I'm from the D bitch. here's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMTdR0ifnQ
O.K., D-Dwag, here's some more Funkadelic for you. Standing on the Verge of Getting It On, the title track of the album for which George Clinton is credited with "Supreme Maggot Minister of Funkadelia; Vocals, Maniac Froth and Spit; Behaviour Illegal In Several States." Does the song start with a sped up voice repeatedly stating: "Hey baby you can be my dog and I can be your tree and you can pee on me"? Yes. Yes it does. Your Daily Dose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmJqDfdGmV4

taxwonk 05-20-2016 11:49 AM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 501075)
And what's the sea change you seek? Not long after I was born, John Lewis' head was being introduced to a cop's club in Selma; today he is being bashed as the "establishment" by a bunch of comfortable 40-something Bernie-Bros in the name of "Berning it down".

Put me down as being on John Lewis' side, whether you view him as establishment or revolutionary.
I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.

I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.

I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.

I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.

I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.

I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.

Sidd Finch 05-20-2016 03:31 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501084)
I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.
Some of this sounds like a nice idea. I like and support small businesses and local companies when they provide a good service, good product, good value.

But of most of it strikes me as misconceived. Small local companies are not going to produce food and clothes and products that people need or want, on the scale needed in a world that has 7 billion people, and when many of those people have ever-increasing consuming power. Efficiency of scale is a real thing. The "small is beautiful" notion worked great in the 1950s, maybe -- or probably only much earlier -- when only a small minority of people could afford to have, say, several pairs of shoes, decent coats, etc. Everything those people bought was made by artisans, whose labor was dirt-cheap.

As for the notion that small employers are more invested in their communities, that may be true. I disagree with your view that it is an unmitigated good. It was not small local employers who effectively opposed discriminatory laws in Indiana and elsewhere. Small local employers will likely reflect biases that are prevalent in their communities; they only started seeing discrimination as a problem when big national companies said they wouldn't do business in the communities where those small companies were based.



Quote:
I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.
Again, swell if you want to limit the number of people who can avoid meat to a fraction of those who can today. I support local and organic farmers. It makes my food much more expensive than it has to be. I can afford it; many people cannot.

That said, I entirely support revoking all of the bullshit subsidies that support corn syrup and soy goop manufacture. And I think that will reduce megafarms a bit. But there are megafarms in all kinds of crops, because-- again-- efficiency of scale means something.


Quote:
I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.
I disagree with this entirely.

As cities have revitalized and people have moved back in, crime has gone down. Cities suffer the most when people leave, and only those who cannot afford to leave are left behind. And cities provide vibrant centers of culture and business, in ways that improve life far more than what small communities can do.

Are people isolated from their neighbors in cities? Sure. But that's true in suburbs and rural areas too. It's true everywhere.

Moreover, if you want to save the planet, you should want more cities and more density. The most energy-efficient housing is the apartment building, not the suburban house with a lawn. You can provide vastly better sanitation and transportation and energy efficiency in a city than in any less-dense living situation. That only happens when there are people in or around the cities with enough money to support them.



Quote:
I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.
We've made a hell of a lot of progress, particularly given the huge increases in population and living standards. The idea that we've made nearly no progress since the early 1960s is just plain wrong, by any measure of "progress" I can think of (opportunity for women and minorities, life expectancy, world poverty.....) Even environmentally, we've made progress at producing more with less energy use and pollution. We have a long way to go in that regard, and limited time to do it -- but I suspect that artisanal solar-power makers living on family farms in Walnut Grove are not really going to save us there. We're going to need significant infrastructure and density promotion and big companies making investments in the future.

Quote:
I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.
I don't think you want to return to the 19th Century. You want to move to a version of the world that has all the good of the 19th century, but none of the bad.


Quote:
I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.
Reading your post reminds me of a science fiction series I read where a group decided that the only way to save the world and "return" to the kind of life and culture they wanted, which was very similar to what you want, was to kill 90% of the world population.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 05-20-2016 04:34 PM
Re: The Magic of Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 501084)
I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.

I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.

I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.

I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.

I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.

I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.
small or big, I like folks who believe in some good stuff and make it happen. As you can tell from your fb feed, I like people who fix up and use barns, not who leave them to the ravages of time.

But I don't worship big or small on their own. I grew up in a place where there were a lot of small minds.

But if you believe in small for its own sake, that's great. Go make some small stuff happen.


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