oops, link
 

Sorry, didn't attach right first time:

http://www.jcrew.com/help.sniplets/sizing.jhtml

Size 0
 

spooky,

Size 0 is what's known as a vanity size. For most clothing manufacturers, what used to be a size 2 is now a size 0. It's not as if some previously unserved segment of the clothing-buying population has been discovered.

A few years ago I walked into a Banana Republic store and miraculously dropped a pants size. Me likey!

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

If she was a size ten then, and they are cutting sizes bigger now, wouldn't she be a six or an 8 now?

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Instead of sending the truly tiny women to the girls department, dressmakers will sometimes develop a "size 0" that reflects clothes one size smaller than 1/2. But it depends on the dressmaker. Over the years, there's been some size inflation, so that a size eight (generally considered "average," though over half the women in the United States are over size 12, so "average" isnt' the right word) nowadays probably was a ten or a twelve twenty to thirty years ago.

Also, not all sizes are the same. From dressmaker to dressmaker, or even from item to item, cuts are different. So someone may be wearing a size six blouse by designer A, and a size four dress by designer B, and refuses to wear designer C because she'd have to wear a size eight.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Wow. If you think Marilyn wouldn't be hired in a second today, you're nuts.

But then again, she married an athlete, so she must have been crazy AND fat.

TM

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Pardon me, I got it backwards, you and RT are right of course.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

So show me the latest big-studio movie in which a woman her size starred as the leading lady, outside a porn flick? No doubt she would be told to lose 20 pounds--after all, the media was calling Alicia Silverstone a cow and saying her career was over because of it when she was what, a size eight?

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

At the peak of her popularity, MM was what would now be a size 6. I attended a function at a museum with one of her famous dresses on display and I was surprised by how tiny it was, given that I had always heard the same.

Clothing sizes haven't changed just because most americans are fatter than they used to be. We are significantly taller and more broad. When I was shopping in Paris with my mother a couple of years ago, we could find no clothing for ourselves though we each wore an american 2 or 4, depending on the manufacturer. Everything was cut more narrowly in the shoulder and in the hip or the waist or bust fell in the wrong place. It was terribly disappointing.

Sizes
 

Marilyn was a size 14 then, I'm guessing would be about a 10 now.

Here's the site where I got the pic of Mia: http://lardbiscuit.com/chicks/miat.html This guy is apparently into women with a little (or a lot! of) meat on their bones. Mia seems to appear at a different weight in just about every photo, so I think it's possible that you saw her at a thinner weight, dtb.

tm

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

My mom gave my dad this collection of books and photographs of Marilyn Monroe for Christmas. I'm pretty sure that he'd agree with you.

New Favorite TV Show
 

So I watched "The Brak Show" last night. Any fans out there? Anyone seen it? Heard of it?

It's brought to you by the same guys who did "Space Ghost Coast to Coast."

Also, I saw Talk To Her over the weekend. For those of you who haven't seen it, DO SO. It's basically a tried and true formula along the lines of . . .

s

p

o

i

l

e

r

Boy A meets Girl A; Boy A falls in love with Girl A; Girl A gets into a car crash and goes into a coma; Boy B meets Girl B; Girl B gets gored by a bull and goes into a coma; Boy A meets Boy B; Girl B dies; Boy A impregnates Girl A while she's in coma; Girl A awakens from coma during childbirth-gone-wrong; Boy A kills himself; Boy B meets Girl A. What's not to like?

str8.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

I think she meant that her size ten in now standards would be a size twelve then. why i followed that makes no sense to me. MM was five five and 135 pounds. of course her weight varied so I dont know if that was her thinner or fatter days.

as for RT's post- I was at lucky recently and was disturbed to learn that a size 29 was the equivalent to a size eigtht. I thought I was a size six. so either Lucky isnt following the make bigger size six trends, or I have become motherjumpin huge without knowing it. I dont weigh myself and use my clothes as a way to measure my fat or thinness. Can soemone confirm that a 29 is an 8 and a 3o is a ten? and (hopefully) that Lucky is not on the make the size bigger program?

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Bringing down the house. Queen Latifah is a BIG woman.

And J-Lo ain't exactly tiny. 10 years ago, they would have told her to lose some weight, especially in her ass.

What made Marilyn so amazing was her sex appeal. She would have that now no matter that she is bigger than most female leads. The fact is, there is no one like her. And she would be hot today. She would definitely not be as big a star if she kept the weight on, no question. But admit what you were saying is hyperbole because you're making a fool of yourself.

Thurgreed(and show me one big-studio movie that IS a porn flick, dumbass)Marshall

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

More and more babies are born by C-section because they're so big. I have seen predictions that C-section will become the rule rather than the exception in (many, but not that many) years because of this trend.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Owweeeee.

More immediately irritating, has anyone else noticed the alarming increase in the number of freakishly tall 21 year old men?

It's getting harder and harder to negotiate good viewing space at shows when you have a dozen men well over 6'6" spread throughout the crowd.

In defense of Elvis
 

Yup, that's the girl I saw -- she might weigh 112 somethings, but it ain't pounds, I can tell you that much. The 5'10" part is accurate, but NO WAY is she 112 pounds. I would estimate 145 at least. She's definitely not a fattie, but she's no waif. (Which is what she would be at 5'10" and 112 pounds.)

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Okay, that's one. One. And while J-Lo has a bigger butt than the average actress (and she did shrink it significantly after her Selena-era abuse in the press, incidentally), otherwise her waist is pretty small and she's in good shape.

Otherwise, you're completely missing my point, as usual. I think Marilyn was beautiful and sexy; she was almost universally thought to be then; but now with all the pressure on women in Hollywood to be extremely skinny, she absolutely would be told to lose weight, quit, or become a 'character actress.' Feminists have been complaining about this for years.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

And look at this fattie: http://www.marilynmonroe.ca/camera/galleries/costumes/

She wouldn't have a shot in Hollywood today. :rolleyes:

TM

My brain makes weird connections
 

The C-section trend also owes something to rising age at which women have their first babies. Women who have started to see their resiliency and flexibility decline with age, however slightly, are none too keen on overstraining their pelvic muscles and risking the muscles' not recovering to their former state. Incontinence? No thank you, it's ever so kind of you to offer, but I will pass.

On a related note, do you know that bulldogs are bred so large that the puppies must be delivered by c-section? This has been the case for many years. There's just something wrong with that. Breeding ought to improve the overall health of a breed, but too often that is not the case.

Also, a very funny article in today's NY Times about cosmetic enhancement in the pike pond that is the dog show circuit. There is actually a manufacturer of artificial dog testicles called Neuticles. They are meant to improve the appearance of the dog who has lost something to illness.

I shoulda been an entrepeneur.

Sizes
 

Nope, I saw Liv. I can tell from the face -- it seemed impossible to me that two people who were not twins could look so amazingly alike, and it turns out they don't!

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

I wish I could see that trend in late 30's men. I'm 5' 10 in flat feet and like to wear heels (flats just look stupid with skirts) - don't know too many men my age that are over 6'.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

A few years ago, I read one of those "science of beauty" books (its on Amazon here if you're in to reading these sorts of books ) that go into why we think certain people are universally beautiful, and they did a comparison of Marilyn Monroe and Audrey Hepburn. These two women are totally different, but they are both considered beautiful. Basically, it came down to hip to waist ratio. They both had hip to waist ratio, somewhere between .8 and .7, and that's most women who are considered "beautiful" have going for them.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Where do you live, the land of Lilliput? I know of many, many people in their late 30's (I happen to be one of them) who are over 6'. Some of them are even single and, I might add, not gay. (NTTAWWT).

spooky(not gay, not single)fish

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Please don't encourage him!

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Ok, I'll bite, here are a few that are bigger, but seem to do fairly OK.

Kate Winslet (told to lose weight for Titanic, but otherwise has done her own thing),
Drew Berrymore (rumor has it she got into the producing so she wouldn't have to deal with studios harping on her about her weight anymore),
Toni Collette (generally indie flicks, but I'd never put her in the waif category, with the possible exception of Velvet Goldmine),
Catherine Zeta-Jones (pre-and post-baby, never was rail thin)

New Favorite TV Show
 

I've seen "The Brak Show." I prefer the other late night cartoons on Adult Swim...

Aqua Teen Hunger Force. A giant anthropomorphic shake, a hovering box of fries with a goatee, and a meatball get into adventures, often at the expense of next-door neighbor Carl, who wears a wifebeater that doesn't quite cover his gut or his abundant back hair. Last night, they were attacked by aliens who attacked them with a belt that had all of the power of arena rock band Foreigner. "How will you attack me when you're 'As Cold As Ice'?"

Sealab 2021. I guess there was a Sealab 2020 cartoon while I was growing up. The best one made the whole episode seem like an Entertainment Tonight special on the making of Sealab: The Movie, complete with gratingly perky "reporter," commercials for an Applebee's style restaurant called Grizzlebee's (try the 64 oz Mega Onion Burst with honey-maple-ranch dipping sauce), and special apperance by Kid and Play as the directors of the movie, trying to rebound from House Party 2.

Cartoons made by stoners, for stoners.

(Now which will come first, a diatribe from JFF about the use of the term "wifebeater" for a white tank top, or a rant from PLF about the dangers of marijuana?)

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

And Nia Vardalos in Big Fat Greek Wedding. Ok, it was indie. Still, a huge hit.

And Kate Winslet hasn't always been waifish (looked more "normal" in Titanic).

I agree with TM that there are some women who just have "it" and are going to be cast as leads even with a few extra pounds, but sadly, most of the actresses I know in LA are scarily thin (definitely 20 pounds less than me). It still seems to be the mindset that women need to look like coat hangers, not real women. There are a few who look closer to normal weight, or at least don't look like the work out 3 hours a day and diet like mad. But those are few and far in between. Vivica Fox and Famke Janssen (I know, thin, but not grossly diet-induced so) come to mind.

C(scared by the health consequences of a population quickly becoming either too fat or too thin)deuced

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

Wrong. I got your point. It was (surprise, surprise) quite simplistic.

When someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they're missing your oh-so-complicated point. It means they think you're wrong.

And Marilyn probably was told to lose weight back then. Her weight fluctuated. But if you think she wouldn't have gotten a job today, you're stupid. She was gorgeous and had intangible sex appeal oozing from her pores.

My point is that beauty standards are shifting. Women of color (not exactly Hollywood's beauty ideal, historically speaking) have an ever increasing say in discussions of beauty and talent. I think Marilyn, although not tiny, would have a place in today's entertainment industry. Hell, men are still obsessed with her. She might even have managed to bring back the voluptious look if she were in movies today (some would argue comes back in cycles anyway).

TM

Liv Tyler - Fat and Happy
 

Did someone say Liv Tyler wasn't fat?

Fat and Happy Liv!

http://www.chez.com/affection/actual/livetaylor.jpg

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

It's all about The Ratio, baby.

The one I look for is breast to waist, but if that ratio is good, it stands to reason that the waist to hip ratio is also on point.

Thurgreed(no encouragement required)Marshall

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! And a size 10!
 

Never mind size inflation, I'm more concerned about size imbalance. I pulled out one of my suits the other day and realized that the jacket was a size 2 and the skirt a size 10. Usually I'll split 6/8 from top to bottom, but sometimes the sized go askew crazily. And, of course, when I have to get a suit all together, I either have to go with an a-line skirt or get the jacket insanely altered, if that can even be done.

WTF is it with suits and dresses having a 38 inch bust and skirts having a 36 inch hip? Are that many women out there bullimic and implanted? (hyperbole alert - no offense intended to women with such measurements)

D(Bad Rich Chic)S

(Notice: the DebtSlave brand has come under new management and upgraded its appearances.)

(:o just had to see if the throw-up smiley worked. Weird smilies here)

New Favorite TV Show
 

A group of friends were raving recently about Sealab 2021. I think that "best thing on TV" was used at one point during the discussion. Note: 100% of the ravers were male. I have no idea if that statistic is relevant to adoration of the show.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

I dont get this. I bet that Tori Spelling, after the rib removal and the lipo has that ideal hip to waist ratio. But bag the face.

Thurgreeds Deep Thoughts
 

It's nice that there are exceptions and that the trend seems to be slowly turning--if only because the skeletor norm has become so outrageously repulsive that people think it's nice to see someone like Barrymore, who's what, an obese size 8? But they're largely still confined to indie films, and they're largely still exceptions. It's entirely possible that despite Marilyn's enormous sex appeal and later talent she would've been confined to the soft-core pinup arena if she started her career today--after all, when she first started acting in films like All About Eve she was widely considered by castmates to be just another flash-in-the-pan talent-impaired starlet.

DS -- Over from the "Dark Side"
 

Welcome, attorney formerly known as DebtSlave. :)

I've seen your name mentioned a lot here lately. Get tired of the echo over at the other board? :p

spooky(stay a while -- many here have been lost without you)fish

I rate this argument a 6
 

TM,

Your exchanges with purse junkie are very dissatisfying. Your heart isn't in it. The feelings aren't strong enough on either side to generate a really heated exchange. Purse junkie's views are perfectly reasonable and there's so very little to argue with, yet you keep chugging along.

It's so sad to see passion wither on the vine like this. I think the real problem is that you have been stifling your urge to tell the poster who shall remain unnamed (and to whom I no longer respond, out of deference to you, schmoopie) just exactly where to stick her (for the sake of simplicity in pronouns) flagpole.

("Marilyn was beautiful but probably wouldn't make it in today's Hollywood." "You're stupid, Marilyn was beautiful, and she would too.")

r (for the record, I think pj's point is that Marilyn would have a tougher time getting through the Hollywood machinery today because agents and/or studios wouldn't recognize her star quality for focusing on her dress size) p

edited to fix split infinitive; although some heathens have determined that such a thing is now acceptable, I am old school.

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

If you have a hip to waist ratio of between .8 and .7, that means that your hips are SMALLER than your waist. I doubt that anyone finds that attractive.

Just(let me guess, you weren't a math major?)ForFun

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! Who needs clothes?
 

I think Marilyn would be a working actress today, but I don't think she would be the first tier star that she was unless she undertook a diet/exercise regime that conformed with contemporary standards of beauty. Casting agents want actresses who ooze sex appeal, but that alone is not enough to guarantee stardom. If casting agents are looking for women with abs like Jennifer Garner, they're not going to care that Marilyn Monroe is sexier, they're going to focus on the softness of her curves with clucking disapproval.

Thin women of color now have greater opportunities in Hollywood. I don't think Hollywood is looking for the next Queen Latifah, though. Perhaps one of the reasons that so many men are obsessed with Marilyn Monroe (and let's not forget Betty Page) is because there aren't a lot of curvy, healthy women without six-pack abs and sharp features in the media.

I remember a poll a few years back where American men overwhelming chose Anna-Nicole Smith over Kate Moss. Those results didn't seem to change many magazine covers. I don't see Calvin Klein deciding chubby is the new black anytime soon.

edited to fix code

Look at me, I'm a size Zero! And a size 10!
 

It's about time. Now get Less' ass over here. I saw he made an appearance awhile ago, but let's get you guys posting on the regular.

TM

fashionably late, as always
 

...that is, if six weeks late is still fashionable. So y'all up'd 'n moved - I go on long trials back to back, and completely miss the revolution! (although I never posted to the ol' FB, but anyway). Viva 'law' revolucion!!