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Gattigap 11-06-2013 02:10 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 484146)
How old ARE you?!?
Don't worry. The elder Mr. Finch had Sidd when he was 72. Think of him as an Italian Hugh Hefner.

Atticus Grinch 11-06-2013 02:11 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 484105)
Yes.

So, I'm still having a hard time believing that there is actually someone named "Richie Incognito."
Apropos of nothing, Picabo Street no longer has the dumbest name in the sports. Hell, she no longer has the dumbest name of professional-skiers-cum-models.

Meet Sierra Quitiquit.

Adder 11-06-2013 02:13 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484148)
and it is often mistaken for racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry.
Yes, it is racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry. It's second order, because it's not antipathy, but it's nonetheless excluding people because of some aspect of their identity.

Sidd Finch 11-06-2013 02:19 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 484146)
How old ARE you?!?
Too old.

Just a year or two older than you, I think. My father is nearly 90. I may have been an "accident".

Hank Chinaski 11-06-2013 02:28 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484148)
Again: In many instances, people are not neglecting to work with minorities because they feel the minority person is inferior, or because they feel discomfort around them. They are not even focusing on the minorities. They are focusing, as people tend to, on those most like them, and choosing to work with those people, with whom they easily bond.

People are tribal. I don't like it (hence, my hatred for religion). I'm not apologizing for it. All I was saying is lots of people engage in it, and it is often mistaken for racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry. Is this laziness, this tribal exclusionary behavior, something bad? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But is it one of those three things? No. It's something else.
when i was at big law we hired a black woman associate into commercial lit. she had just finished a clerkship for one of the longest tenured US judges here. bright young woman.

she complained to me that partner X would give the white associates actual legal work, whereas what she got from X was runner tasks. He would have her go to the court to file stuff (this is back in the day when you had to do that, I have no idea what X would assign her now). Assuming she had not previously fucked up a project for X, is there some racism in X's behavior?

Sidd Finch 11-06-2013 02:45 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484148)
You're expanding what I said. I didn't use "discomfort." I used "laziness" and "tribal."

bzzzzt!!! Wrong. You said "Sometimes it's dislike of "the Other," sure, but it's mainly laziness. People seek comfort."

Was I incorrect in believing that the opposite of "comfort" (derived from surrounding oneself with other white people) is "discomfort" (which you get when the "other" comes in).


Quote:
Again: In many instances, people are not neglecting to work with minorities because they feel the minority person is inferior, or because they feel discomfort around them. They are not even focusing on the minorities. They are focusing, as people tend to, on those most like them, and choosing to work with those people, with whom they easily bond.

People are tribal. I don't like it (hence, my hatred for religion). I'm not apologizing for it. All I was saying is lots of people engage in it, and it is often mistaken for racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry. Is this laziness, this tribal exclusionary behavior, something bad? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But is it one of those three things? No. It's something else.
You are digging the hole deeper here.

ThurgreedMarshall 11-06-2013 02:54 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484148)
You're expanding what I said. I didn't use "discomfort." I used "laziness" and "tribal."

Again: In many instances, people are not neglecting to work with minorities because they feel the minority person is inferior, or because they feel discomfort around them. They are not even focusing on the minorities. They are focusing, as people tend to, on those most like them, and choosing to work with those people, with whom they easily bond.

People are tribal. I don't like it (hence, my hatred for religion). I'm not apologizing for it. All I was saying is lots of people engage in it, and it is often mistaken for racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry. Is this laziness, this tribal exclusionary behavior, something bad? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But is it one of those three things? No. It's something else.
Jesus fucking Christ. This is what I'm talking about. You are bending over backwards to avoid labeling something racist and you sound like a fool.

If you are white and you are at a firm and you pick only white associates to do your work because you fucking assume those people are like you for whatever reason and black people are not, you are being racist. If it makes you feel better, you can call yourself a lazy racist, but you are judging people based on the color of their skin and denying them because of it.

TM

ThurgreedMarshall 11-06-2013 02:58 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 484150)
Okay.

http://caitlinmitchellstudio.files.w...ed-1.jpg?w=590

TM

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-06-2013 03:02 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 484155)
Jesus fucking Christ. This is what I'm talking about. You are bending over backwards to avoid labeling something racist and you sound like a fool.

If you are white and you are at a firm and you pick only white associates to do your work because you fucking assume those people are like you for whatever reason and black people are not, you are being racist. If it makes you feel better, you can call yourself a lazy racist, but you are judging people based on the color of their skin and denying them because of it.

TM
Back when I was at Biglaw and on the hiring committee, I used to pretty much advocate for every minority who had a chance, on the theory that they'd had to work twice as hard for many of their achievements. Total, conscious reverse racism on my part. And I hired a lot of great associates who did very well with that attitude.

Want people who look like yourself working for you? Not just racism, also recipe for mediocrity.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 11-06-2013 03:11 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 484143)
Once my father ate a piece of fruit that had an obvious rotten spot on it (he didn't eat the rot itself). I pointed it out to him, and acted like I was getting sick.

He looked at me and said, 'in the war [he was 22, in Italy, when WWII ended], we used to eat things the dogs wouldn't touch, and none of us died from it.'

So, I'm not so sure about the "our dads had it better." They just bitched less about it. And the transition for them has been a whole lot harder.
Lucky bastard got to visit Italy when he was 22? He probably had a backpack and hiked throughout the countryside. Only boarding school kids have that opportunity today.

ETA: Also, war builds character. The dad from Calvin & Hobbes consistently advised Calvin that character-building was of the utmost importance.

http://riteshjsr.files.wordpress.com...0/ch890719.gif

bold_n_brazen 11-06-2013 03:11 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gattigap (Post 484138)
As it happens, the two Gaplets (now 10 and 14) are still doing theater stuff, and the nearby equity theater is doing a production of Ragtime. The 10yo is playing the narrator/Little Boy. You wanna give your kid a crash course in race relations, and spend time explaining that X in the script is acting like an asshole and Y is not and here's why, this'll do it.

Um, carry on.
I took the Brazenette to see Memphis last year. Then I had some explaining to do.

Atticus Grinch 11-06-2013 03:16 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 484152)
Too old.

Just a year or two older than you, I think. My father is nearly 90. I may have been an "accident".
He may say so, but no ejaculation by a man over 40 is ever really an accident, IYKWIM. Hope that helps with your self-esteem.

Not Bob 11-06-2013 03:24 PM
The Jews have all the money, and the whites have all the power.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484148)
You're expanding what I said. I didn't use "discomfort." I used "laziness" and "tribal."

Again: In many instances, people are not neglecting to work with minorities because they feel the minority person is inferior, or because they feel discomfort around them. They are not even focusing on the minorities. They are focusing, as people tend to, on those most like them, and choosing to work with those people, with whom they easily bond.

People are tribal. I don't like it (hence, my hatred for religion). I'm not apologizing for it. All I was saying is lots of people engage in it, and it is often mistaken for racism/sexism/ethnic bigotry. Is this laziness, this tribal exclusionary behavior, something bad? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But is it one of those three things? No. It's something else.
Sebby, you know I love you like that guy from undergrad who always picked up enough Slim Jims (and who remembered to grab Seagrams Golden Wine Coolers for the lay-dees) when he went on a beer run, but you are wrong in too many ways to count.

I don't doubt your personal views on this, but if you think that racism isn't the culprit for the exclusionary policies (like the example Hank just gave), you are willfully blind. If you really, upon actually thinking about it, feel that way, I'd suggest that you google the phrase "white privilege."

I know that I am, like the song says, a little bit (at least) racist. I don't like it, but it's there. (While I'm at it, you all should know that I'm also a bit sexist and have -isms as to certain religions and national origins. I'm less of a homophobe than I used to be, but still am squeamish, and I think that the Warren Commission was mostly right.) I can flat out tell you that every firm I've been with had an overwhelming number of partners young and old with explicit or thinly veiled race and gender biases.

ThurgreedMarshall 11-06-2013 03:56 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 484157)
Back when I was at Biglaw and on the hiring committee, I used to pretty much advocate for every minority who had a chance, on the theory that they'd had to work twice as hard for many of their achievements. Total, conscious reverse racism on my part. And I hired a lot of great associates who did very well with that attitude.
I tend to agree. But when I'm looking at anyone's resume and I see a general trend upward (from shitty high school to good college to great law school, for example), I know that person has busted their ass and had to prove themselves at every level.

Black kids who went to great schools the whole way have that extra "I'm not a token, I'm actually very smart" hill to climb, that is a basic assumption for any white person with the same background, but it's not quite the same as the person who clawed their way up.

TM

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-06-2013 04:03 PM
Re: Interesting Article
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thurgreedmarshall (Post 484162)
i tend to agree. But when i'm looking at anyone's resume and i see a general trend upward (from shitty high school to good college to great law school, for example), i know that person has busted their ass and had to prove themselves at every level.

Black kids who went to great schools the whole way have that extra "i'm not a token, i'm actually very smart" hill to climb, that is a basic assumption for any white person with the same background, but it's not quite the same as the person who clawed their way up.

Tm
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