Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 484258)

I have a hard time watching the game because of the injuries. And I won't let my kids play football. With the increasing understanding of what the game does to the players, I wouldn't go long NFL stock.

eta: Turns out this is really more of a response to RT's post.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 484266)

A few things.

1. Ray Lewis is a fucking piece of shit. He either ordered a murder or assissted in trying to cover it up. I suppose you can't keep him from playing in the league, but the NFL practically made him the face of the league because he's good at football. And ESPN picked up that torch and ran 26 miles with it (and they're still going). If that doesn't send a message to all players and fans that there is almost nothing you can do to lose your status if you are really good, nothing will.

2. These guys, from the minute they hit college (and for many, way before that), are treated like Gods. And they are trained to hurt people and to act like animals on the field while being forgiven for being animals off the field. The more insane you are, the more adulation and money you get. Every institution that allows them to play pretends like these fuckers can turn it off when they step off the field. Privilege plus an atmosphere of cultivating violence = unchecked lunacy.

3. The last clip in PLF's post shows Incognito screaming "Nigger," in public, wihtout a shirt, clearly drunk, surrounded by his teammates (including some black ones). Every single one of them who has his back now is partially to blame for his out-of-control behavior w/r/t Martin. They all gave him a stamp of approval to say whatever the fuck he wants and to do whatever the fuck he wants.

4. I refuse to go to live football games unless someone gets me into a luxury box. First, it's more fun to watch on tv. Second, the fans are disgusting. No way the NFL does anything about it until someone is murdered in the stands or the parking lot before the game. Budweiser needs the NFL's core demo as drunk and stupid as possible. And when it happens (like it happened in baseball), there will be huge blowback because the NFL runs the world and the fans will not be told they can't drink to Bolivian* on gameday.

TM

*Special thanks to Mike Tyson.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 484278)

My husband is from Ohio. His brother-in-law is tailgating at every single OU home game, 200 miles from where he lives, six or seven years after he graduated. The Stubenville thing, while just as likely in a small Texas town, was well north of the Mason Dixon line. My brother is doing a graduate degree at Michigan. That stadium is one of the largest in the country. This ins't just a culture of the South.

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 484272)

No. It's bullying. You are operating under the illusion that it is less reprehensible if children do it. But it's the same thing, no matter the age: physical assault coupled with intolerance of one form or another. Either way, it's wrong and indefensible.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484286)

When kids do it, it's worse. And it's not defensible. But it's also not a crisis we need to address.

Global warming is a crisis. The economy is in crisis. Kids picking on each other, physically or online, is not a crisis. And it makes us look like a culture of soft-headed people with too much time on our hands to become so invested in discussing it. Bullies have been with us forever, and they will be with us forever. There is no policy fix for this, nor should there be one. Everyone will encounter a bully at some point, and part of your evolution as a person is finding a way to overcome him or her.

I found as a child that the best way to encounter a kid picking on you was: (a) Avoid him if he's bigger than you; or, (b) Beat the shit out of him if he's your own size. The latter works quite nicely. Unfortunately, as a society, we've decided that elegant fix - followed for thousands of years before - is abhorrent.

Originally Posted by sebastiansociety,ield (Post 484286)

When kids do it, it's worse. And it's not defensible. But it's also not a crisis we need to address.

Global warming is a crisis. The economy is in crisis. Kids picking on each other, physically or online, is not a crisis. And it makes us look like a culture of soft-headed people with too much time on our hands to become so invested in discussing it. Bullies have been with us forever, and they will be with us forever. There is no policy fix for this, nor should there be one. Everyone will encounter a bully at some point, and part of your evolution as a person is finding a way to overcome him or her.

I found as a child that the best way to encounter a kid picking on you was: (a) Avoid him if he's bigger than you; or, (b) Beat the shit out of him if he's your own size. The latter works quite nicely. Unfortunately, as a society, we've decided that elegant fix - followed for thousands of years before - is abhorrent.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484286)

When kids do it, it's worse. And it's not defensible. But it's also not a crisis we need to address.

Global warming is a crisis. The economy is in crisis. Kids picking on each other, physically or online, is not a crisis. And it makes us look like a culture of soft-headed people with too much time on our hands to become so invested in discussing it. Bullies have been with us forever, and they will be with us forever. There is no policy fix for this, nor should there be one. Everyone will encounter a bully at some point, and part of your evolution as a person is finding a way to overcome him or her.

I found as a child that the best way to encounter a kid picking on you was: (a) Avoid him if he's bigger than you; or, (b) Beat the shit out of him if he's your own size. The latter works quite nicely. Unfortunately, as a society, we've decided that elegant fix - followed for thousands of years before - is abhorrent.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 484289)

Marry me.

The other cultural shift is that midway through the 20th century we decided that institutions should expand beyond their traditional role of responding to things like crimes and wars and disasters and actually do things to prevent them. I don't think many people realize the extent to which something like "crime prevention" or "suicide prevention" would sound insane to the average person before the 1970s. Deterrence, yes, through punishment, but prevention? " Interventions"? No. And the idea that the government can prevent a tragedy by outlawing something that's harmless 99.9% of the time but tragic 0.1% of the time would have struck our parents and grandparents as nuts. Ask the inventor of Buckyballs how this plays out now.

And anti-bullying is a species of "suicide prevention" plus the idea that adult unhappiness is always a product of childhood trauma. Make the bullies better people and we'll finally have a generation of well-adjusted nerds, gays and girls.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484291)

No. We can still handle things like bullying on our own without having to pass some ludicrous nanny law against it.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 484284)

I've been to a few Vikings games this year and been pleasantly surprised. Lots of drunk and stupid, but not much belligerence.

Originally Posted by dtb (Post 484292)

Who said anything about laws? But the "kids will be kids" macho bullshit is not something I can endorse.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 484289)

Marry me.

The other cultural shift is that midway through the 20th century we decided that institutions should expand beyond their traditional role of responding to things like crimes and wars and disasters and actually do things to prevent them. I don't think many people realize the extent to which something like "crime prevention" or "suicide prevention" would sound insane to the average person before the 1970s. Deterrence, yes, through punishment, but prevention? " Interventions"? No. And the idea that the government can prevent a tragedy by outlawing something that's harmless 99.9% of the time but tragic 0.1% of the time would have struck our parents and grandparents as nuts. Ask the inventor of Buckyballs how this plays out now.

And anti-bullying is a species of "suicide prevention" plus the idea that adult unhappiness is always a product of childhood trauma. Make the bullies better people and we'll finally have a generation of well-adjusted nerds, gays and girls.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 484287)

well the difference is that when we were bullied we had the sanctuary of being at home. today no one can escape the internet, there is no sanctuary. although I sort of worry about people's ability to deal with shit.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 484294)

I was wrong. The anti-bullying alarmists aren't seeking to pass laws against it. They have already done so: http://www.stopbullying.gov/laws

And given the rule no self-righteous zealot is ever satisfied, we can expect a whole lot more where that came from... Clogging already understaffed police departments and courts with ridiculous technical claims.

I don't see "kids will be kids" as macho bullshit. The worst bullying doesn't involve men at all. In almost every horror story about bullied kids killing themselves, the culprits are female. Guys will physically attack each other, or talk shit to one another, but the conflict has an end. They ague, fight, and it's over. Girls never forget. They never let go. The torture persists indefinitely, passive-aggressively, and corrosively over weeks, months, and even years. The real face of bullying is a female between 9 and 18.

Your sex should be better than that.