No:(
I have seen film of Hitler eating. But, and though I know you could follow that that would not have been a "loss," some of the dimmer folk here might have seen it as such.*


* to "lose" i would need to call Ty Hitler, which I wasn't doing. Merely mentioning Hitler is not a loss.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

• WASHINGTON, Dec. 2 -- Two days before he resigned as defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld submitted a classified memo to the White House that acknowledged that the Bush administration's strategy in Iraq was not working and called for a major course correction.
  
  "In my view it is time for a major adjustment," wrote Mr. Rumsfeld, who has been a symbol of a dogged stay-the-course policy. "Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough."
  
  Nor did Mr. Rumsfeld seem confident that the administration would readily develop an effective alternative. To limit the political fallout from shifting course he suggested the administration consider a campaign to lower public expectations.
  
  "Announce that whatever new approach the U.S. decides on, the U.S. is doing so on a trial basis," he wrote. "This will give us the ability to readjust and move to another course, if necessary, and therefore not 'lose.' "
  
  "Recast the U.S. military mission and the U.S. goals (how we talk about them) -- go minimalist," he added. Mr. Rumsfeld's memo suggests frustration with the pace of turning over responsibility to the Iraqi authorities; in fact, the memo calls for examination of ideas that roughly parallel troop withdrawal proposals presented by some of the White House's sharpest Democratic critics.
  
  The memo's discussion of possible troop reduction options offers a counterpoint to Mr. Rumsfeld's frequent public suggestions that discussions about force levels are driven by requests from American military commanders.
  
  Instead, the memo puts on the table several ideas for troop redeployments or withdrawals that appear to conflict with recent public pronouncements from commanders in Iraq emphasizing the need to maintain troop levels.

NYT

Wake up and smell the coffee, Spanky.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

What does "classified memo" mean? is it different to the NYT?

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

That whoever gave it to the NYT -- Rumsfeld? the White House? -- could get in trouble for doing so.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Can you imagine a newspaper in the United States publishing something classified during WW2? Can you imagine the political mindset of a person in that time who was pleased to read it the way you were now?

It's Rummy after the election, devastated and the poster boy for the defeat. Of course he is pessimistic. What makes me pessimistic is that the left wants us to lose.

Oh, I do agree with the part of your post where you say sometihng is fucked.

Do you hope to raise your children Shia or Sunni? I have a daughter. I hope you understand why I'm not on your side.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

It's not like there's anything in that article about Iraq that's news to anyone who has been paying attention. I posted because Spanky doesn't seem to be in that group. It's nice to know that Rumsfeld was. Is Bush? Evidently you are, because you're trying to change the subject.

I thought it was Rumsfeld before the election, since the memo was written two days before he was canned, and he was canned the day after the election, but perhaps I misunderstood.

What makes you trollish is that you know that's not true.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

What, you mean like the Chicago Tribune publishing FDR's Secret War Plans?

Yes, actually, it's a pretty famous incident, and the first of many major WWII leaks.

Ignorant fuck.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

I take back anything negative I may have said about you. It's clear you've just been drinking given your reading comprehension.

What does your daughter think about all Daddy's drinking? I hope you're not driving her to a tee-totalling religion with this.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

When you post things like this, I would prefer you not do so with the prayer shawl and yarmulke avatar. I find the juxtaposition very offensive.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Why, exactly?

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

ummm, what did the polls say the day before?

and the NYT gleefully publishes a "confidential memo" and I ask WTF? and I'm the one changing the subject?

Ty when this board meant something, when it wasn't simply Spanky saying shit he knows is outrageous, i actually was a major contributor. Now you have this board where you have "discussions" with Spanky, but no other R bothers. You talk about the "mess" of Iraq- well Iraq was fucked up before. This board was pretty cool before you fucked it up.
At least Rummy thought about criticism. Do you not see that this board is a wasteland?

Last week, on FB you all blasted Spanky as being delusional in his arguing style. I think Spank is just fucking with you, but whatever, you all believe he is divorced from reality- YET he is all that is left here. You have ran off everyone else. Slave links to lgf articles twice a week, but otherwise you've killed this place.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

I had decided to leave you alone and let you try to exist on FB- i figured you'd fuck up with someone else, but I had decided to tolerate you.

Que sera sera.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Given that you don't bother, why is your post count here so high?

If you want to tell me how I fucked up the board or ran off everyone, you know how to PM me. As you know, I've offered to listen before.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Off my corner, ho.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

because this place doesn't matter. I can shit here, and no one who I care about smells it.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

sincere hank.

you I respect. i think you are one of the few Dems who posts here and are intellectually honest- i disagree with you, but do respect that you opinions are honest. because of that I would change my avatar based solely on your request- BUT I can only do that at work. so I'll try to limit my posts to more white bread stuff until monday.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

There certainly has been a fundamental change in the mindset of the press and much of the body politic in that regard since WWII. I'd trace it back to Watergate as well as, but even more than, the Vietnam War.

When the country found out that the Administration had sanctioned, and that the President was actively attempting to cover up criminal, political activity (i.e. for personal gain), the trust in and respect for the office were largely gone -- and, even after some recovery, the relationship between our government and the public had fundamentally changed.

So now, the default reaction is to publish everything. I think that reaction is unfortunate, because I agree both that there are limits to the public's "right to know" -- which doesn't extend to every detail of our internal policy deliberations -- and that the media should exercise restraint in the interests of national security.

However, Hank -- we both know that documents are drastically overclassified, and that it is completely nonsensical to expect any media person in the modern era just to "take their word for it (i.e. the government) -- which leaves us with a subjective standard for publication, based in part upon the reporters' and editors' moral compass.

There have been some things published in the past few years that I wish hadn't been, and that I think hurt our security without any corresponding benefit. But I'm sure I'd draw that line differently than you. On this thing, I don't see any reason to publish it.

To the extent Ty was pleased to read it, I think he was pleased that he could hit Spanky on the head with it, and perhaps at the humiliation of a bunch of arrogant fuckups who are also his political adversaries, not at their underlying policy failures and the likely effects on this country.

I think much of the left wants the GOP to lose, but that very little of the left wants America to lose in Iraq. On that, I'll just say that as ye sow, so shall ye reap. The GOP had plenty of fun in 1996-2000 tormenting Clinton -- you can't expect that to have no after effects.

As for my daughters, I'm going Episcopalian. The extent of your personal animosity is somewhat disturbing, though.

S_A_M

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

I'm not sure why you constantly blame Ty for what you dislike about the Board. He is just one person. If you don't like his views or the way he argues -- just don't respond to him. Don't read his posts. Talk with other people, etc. etc.

I haven't spoken to anyone who has stopped posting here, so I don't know their motivations, but I find it hard to believe anyone would leave a board based on one poster.

It seems more likely to me that Slave, Club and others have limited their posting because they are dislillusioned with politics in general and/or just don't want to talk aabout much after the performance of their chosen party the past few years and the serious ass-whipping it just took. After all, they were all more active before the election.

So, you agree that Spanky's style is so divorced from reality that you don't think he is serious? Good, I like that. Let's see what he says.

You haven't done much to help this place.

S_A_M

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Honest question.

Why are you trying so hard to make this place unpleasant?

S_A_M

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Spank is often just arguing for the sake of it and going way out on a ledge. If you respected him at all you would see that. My point was 1) several of the Dems here posted that he is basically a dull wit who can't think logically (onthe FB to try to gain favor with someone arguing with Spank), and 2) he is really the only one left from the right. doesn't 1 + 2= something is wrong, and it's proven by your sense of the place.

ever make an omelet? what is the first thing you have to do? break stuff.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Perhaps, but your're the first I've seen that gleefully shits in the omelette and then complains to other patrons that attendance is down in the restaurant.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

that was like, four posts ago. you didn't have to link to it. so it's MY fault that all the Reps quit? wow!

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

It's a glimpse of self-awareness that deserves being saved for posterity, Hank. Be proud.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Hank -

You're overreacting. I think Ty's generally an amiable sort who believes what he writes. He's relentless. So what? Do you suggest that his refusal to bend at all to your more centrist positions, and his consistent citation of left-leaning blog drivel has somehow infuriated Republicans to the point that they won't engage in discourse with him? I don't think that's the case. What I think is going on is that Libertarian types like Slave and I realize that there's not much point in arguing.

Do people on this board really think they'll cause another fucking lawyer to change his mind, or consider the other side's position? Come on. Lawyers don't do that. You can scream till you're blue in the face. The more reasoned and irrefutable the argument you offer, the more the other side just digs in. Say what you want about Spanky, he's actually one of the more open minded posters here. He'll admit the flaws in his party's plank.

I don't have a party to support anymore. I find myself arguing against both parties. I find myself more against the "Political Class" than any single party, so I find debates between GOP and Dem partisans kind of silly. I want something neither is willing to give - real true freedom from govt interference. That's never going to happen, so why should I argue?

All I can do right now is pray Rudy gets elected.

My simple take on all of it is that if you can safely say you believe in Liberalism, you're a fucking horse's ass. And you know it. The same goes for a person who believes the GOP can do no wrong.

Fuck anyone who takes a side and won't consider the other side's view. Those people are ruining this country.

SD

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Enough people are killed in the name of God every day already, as has been the case throughout history, that I find Hank's use of the trappings of religion in conjunction with his particular brand of cynicism almost an endorsement of religious warfare and hate.

I would be just as offended if he did the same thing in his Jesus mode.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Thank you.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Question: Should someone tell ppnyc that it turns day and night in Africa also?

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

He's not. He's reacting the same way the Left leaners here do.

I'll agree with a Democrat or a Liberal when he's right. I'll split my vote. I think people who accept 75% of any "movement" (Liberalism, being a Democrat or Republican, Social Conservativism, Religion, etc...) are idiots.

The Liberals on this board won't admit one fucking tiny element of any of Bush's policies are good. They buy into Berkeley-think nearly 100%. That's disingenuous, imbecilic and frustrating. I think a lot of the Left Leaners need to stop identifying with what they think are the necessary badges of their chosen ideology and start fucking thinking for themselves. No ational person can argue in this day and age that we should engage protectionism or grwo our govt's social safety nets. That's absurd and reckless and naive. Likewise, we cannot spend wildly on the GOP's wars of pre-emption, or drug entitlements.

My ex-party is a fucking mess. I'll admit it. So are the fucking Dems, and Liberalism is a bankrupt fucking concept only a goddamned child would argue for. There's a reason people age into political pragmatists, and laugh at their Liberal youths.

Liberals are free to post about whatever infantile social salves they like, and Hank's free to piss on them for it.

I'd rather just sit back and laugh at Liberals, but I'm not Hank.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Islam is the "Godfather III," "Jaws, The Revenge" or "Return of the Jedi" of religions. The Jews put together a very sensible social code and made up a myth about its divine origins to enforce it. Christians then took it and added a spin to it, gave it a new face and put out a fairly solid "Empire Strikes Back" or "Godfather Part II."

Unfortunately, for us, of the three, Islam somehow got the "Rocky Horror Picture Show" cult following.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

I do get that sometimes he argues just for the sake of argument. I haven't recognized too often that he was saying things he doesn't believe. I don't NOT respect him.

That is a problem, but is it the place or the people?

S_A_M

No idea what you are talking about. Did the Democratic Party have an entry at Sundance?

Or, is this just another instance of you finding something you don't like and concluding that it must be the product of the monolithic, always-marching-in-lockstep Dems?

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Serious question: If Spanky actually means what he says (like, "we won the war in Iraq"), what would you think of him? Would that mean, to you, that he is "a dull wit who can't think logically"?

I ask because - I know Spanky, I met him IRL before he started on the board, and I've talked with him many times. I believe that he is sincere about most of what he posts here.

And yet, I don't think he is "a dull wit" -- to the contrary, I know that he's a very engaging and intelligent person. I just think he's drunk too much of the Party wine, which is a danger that anyone who actually works within partisan politics faces.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

I haven't met spanky. I think he argues to argue quite often. I think it is an exercise in boredom for him. The "dullwit" stuff is basically what several PB dems said about him last week on FB. I certainly have no beef with Spank. I merely point out that he is the only one who bothers to engage here anymore, and I wonder if he is actually engaged most times. I do note that several of your brethern apparently feel he is not engaged.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Dude, in fairness, half the Left Leaners here - like most left leaners elsewhere - are blind to anything outside what they think are the proper talking points for liberals.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

The NYT published a story that a foreign bank is helping us trace money to identify terrorists. That is, find the guys who are planning the next 9/11 , but earlier.

By publishing the story they ruined the source for information. Perhaps worse, they exposed the co-operating bank to Jihadi retribution. Do you think it likely some other foreign business or institution is likely to want to help us once it knows the details may be published in the NYT.

Next potential allie's President: "should I help America preserve itself by outing terrorists when it is likely America's "best" newspaper will someday out me, heedless to the harm it may cause?"

The most amazing thing is the Editor who greenlighted the story, a few month back published an editorial where he admitted he had made a mistake. Was the reason that the plan was working to trip up the names of terroists we would otherwise not know about until the bombs go off and the buildings fall? No. Was the reason because it might expose that bank to attack, or chill any other entity from co-operating? No.

The reason was under the strained in-bred test he had set up he had, in retrospect, answered a question wrong for himself. The mother fucker made every one of us less safe. He is on some side other than mine.

education & spending
 

Last Sunday, the NYT Magazine ran a story about education reform. If you go here, you'll find a post by Matt Yglesias responding to a column by Jonathan Chait about the subject, both prompted by the NYT piece. Here's an e-mail from my brother, who knows a thing or two about the subject, responding to Yglesias:

I may take this down, if he tells me to.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

And therefore when Rumsfeld's people leaked them that memo, they shouldn't have run it. QED.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Based on the memo, do you now view all of the blame for Iraq placed on Rummy differently?

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Not so much.

The buck stops with three people: Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. I see the memo as an attempt to shift the apportionment among them.

Rumsfeld: We're fucked.
 

Wednesday evening I will post on what should happen with this board, and why it must happen.