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-   -   Pepper sprayed for public safety. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=863)

Tyrone Slothrop 12-21-2012 01:40 AM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Boy, looks like we won't have Boehner to kick around any longer.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-21-2012 09:04 AM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 475781)
Boy, looks like we won't have Boehner to kick around any longer.

We'll see.

The house ought to end up governed by a coalition made up of 70-80% of the Dems and 30-40% of the Republicans -- governance by the sane. The problem is the Rs are so disfunctional that the only votes that get anything done will have 95% of the Dems and 10% of the Rs. Pelosi is the new de facto Speaker, and whoever the Rs elect is in charge of figuring out when something absolutely has to pass for the good of the country and getting the 10% vote for Pelosi's bill.

But Pelosi will now be the house's scribe on the tax bill.

Hank Chinaski 12-21-2012 09:44 AM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 475782)
We'll see.

The house ought to end up governed by a coalition made up of 70-80% of the Dems and 30-40% of the Republicans -- governance by the sane. The problem is the Rs are so disfunctional that the only votes that get anything done will have 95% of the Dems and 10% of the Rs. Pelosi is the new de facto Speaker, and whoever the Rs elect is in charge of figuring out when something absolutely has to pass for the good of the country and getting the 10% vote for Pelosi's bill.

But Pelosi will now be the house's scribe on the tax bill.

sure she will. Didn't they turn down Boehner at first last year too? How much did Pelosi end up scribing then?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-21-2012 12:16 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 475782)
We'll see.

The house ought to end up governed by a coalition made up of 70-80% of the Dems and 30-40% of the Republicans -- governance by the sane. The problem is the Rs are so disfunctional that the only votes that get anything done will have 95% of the Dems and 10% of the Rs. Pelosi is the new de facto Speaker, and whoever the Rs elect is in charge of figuring out when something absolutely has to pass for the good of the country and getting the 10% vote for Pelosi's bill.

But Pelosi will now be the house's scribe on the tax bill.

That would make sense in a world without any party discipline. But every one of those 30-40% of the Republicans just got re-elected in a Democratic year, and is more worried about losing his (or her, but likely his) seat to a primary challenger than losing in the general. Not going to happen.

Gattigap 12-21-2012 12:19 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 475787)
That would make sense in a world without any party discipline. But every one of those 30-40% of the Republicans just got re-elected in a Democratic year, and is more worried about losing his (or her, but likely his) seat to a primary challenger than losing in the general. Not going to happen.

Don't worry. Speaker Cantor will know what to do.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-21-2012 05:02 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gattigap (Post 475788)
Don't worry. Speaker Cantor will know what to do.

Best thing I've read about yesterday:

Quote:

Let's get something straight from the start. Plan B wasn't going to lead to any deal anyway. Suppose it had gotten 218 votes last night, instead of being the epic failure that it was. Okay. That would have left Republicans at $1,000,000 on tax rates, with Obama at $400,000. That's still an extremely wide gulf, and if the GOP had to fight that hard to get to 218 on $1 million, what on earth would make anyone think there'd be votes in the GOP caucus for a compromise-on-the-compromise figure like $500,000 or $600,000? No chance.

And that's just tax rates. Plan B also included draconian, not to say outright cruel, cuts to the safety net--ending the child tax credit (Merry Christmas, kids?), permitting the lapsing of certain tax credits that alleviate the tax burden of the working poor. Finally, Plan B lifted the sequester, the across-the-board mandated spending cuts, on the Pentagon only (Merry Christmas, Lockheed Martin!).

In other words, Plan B was a fully baked conservative cake--penalties for poor people, goodies for defense contractors. Then over top of it Boehner tried to apply this icing of a tax increase on two-tenths of one percent of the population, so that the gullible and ever-hopeful establishment press would write that Republicans raised some taxes and see, there's hope.

But even if they'd passed it, the chasm between Obama and the Republicans would still have been vast, and Boehner's unyielding caucus would have signaled that they weren't budging one inch further. I shook my head ruefully yesterday as I listened to some of the credulous reporting on NPR about how Americans should keep hope alive (host Robert Siegel sounded, in fairness, like he knew better).
So step back and think of last night in this context: Plan B was a conservative plan with one little tiny dash of compromise, one small and mostly symbolic feather step outside the safe zone of hard-right ideology and toward...not even the center, but the far-right fringe of the center. And the Republicans could not vote even for that.
As Andrew Sullivan wrote yesterday, a word I re-used on television last night, they are vandals. They aren't legislators. They have nothing to contribute to the polity at all. All they want to do is destroy--the federal government; Barack Obama; the national economy as long as Obama is president might gain from good economic news. That is an agenda of destruction; of vandalism quite literally. This should be manifestly clear this morning even to the most monastic heirs of David Broder.

Obama was offering around $1.2 trillion each in taxes and cuts. He moved dramatically on the debt ceiling. He put a Social Security cut on the table that is bitter medicine indeed for a lot of his base. He came to the table. Boehner, for whom my sympathy is limited, lied about the president in every one of these particulars. Obama tried. The Republicans said clearly: sorry, we don't compromise. On anything.
What now? Obama should hold a press conference, I think, or even give a quick Oval Office speech and tell the American people all the above, tell them exactly where things stand, exactly what this alleged "political party" is doing in the name of 47 percent of them. He's been patient and more than fair. Besides which, he should not just assume that Americans will blame the GOP if we go over the cliff. He needs to do something to make sure they blame the GOP.

And Boehner? It depends on whether he wants to hold on to his job, and whether he is willing to drop the Hastert Rule, by which he won't let anything get to the floor unless it has the support of the majority of the GOP caucus in the House.

If he actually decides he wants to do the right thing for the country, which is a long shot but given last night's humiliation might be possible, he'll announce today that he doesn't care if he's speaker anymore, he's going to bring Obama's latest proposal to the floor and permit an up-or-down vote. Or short of that, he could at least bring the Senate bill (protecting the tax rates on dollars earned below $250,000) to the floor to see if either would pass with the support of most or nearly all Democrats and 30 or so Republicans. He'd be ending his career as speaker. But maybe after last night, Cincinatti is looking pretty good to him.

However. Is there any guarantee that the Senate bill could get those 30 Republican votes? Yes, a small number of them, still in single digits, have said they'd vote for the Senate bill. But needless to say the whole machinery would gin up again. Freedom Works, the Kochs, the Club for Growth, Red State, Limbaugh. All would be enraged at the prospect of Republicans voting to increase taxes at that level, and they'd paint targets on the soft Republicans' backs and start the war dance all over again.

So we'll go over the cliff, and Obama will have more leverage, and we'll see what happens then. But make no mistake. Mr. Smith's insane cousins have come to Washington, and insane people can't be reasoned with. The country is stuck with the vandals, and vandalism is all they can commit, because that is who they are.
Michael Tomasky

Tyrone Slothrop 12-21-2012 05:32 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Violent deaths actually have been dropping in the US:

http://www.kieranhealy.org/files/mis...ts-all-new.png

Hank Chinaski 12-21-2012 08:28 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 475789)
Best thing I've read about yesterday:



Michael Tomasky

[rhetorical]didn't his proposal get voted down by the R's last year, before he sold it?[/rhetorical]

Adder 12-22-2012 12:57 AM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 475789)
Best thing I've read about yesterday:



Michael Tomasky

I don't agree that Obama needs to do anything to assign blame. They failed at their own silly gambit. Blame is clear.

Hank Chinaski 12-22-2012 12:05 PM

a background check before watching Comedy Central, and a limit of 1 per month
 
Guns don't kill people, Jon Stewart kills people

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-22-2012 01:32 PM

Re: a background check before watching Comedy Central, and a limit of 1 per month
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 475794)

It's true. And real guns save people. But fake video game guns kill people.

Praise the Lord and Pass the Mail-Order Special Ops Ammunition!

Tyrone Slothrop 12-22-2012 01:46 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 475793)
I don't agree that Obama needs to do anything to assign blame. They failed at their own silly gambit. Blame is clear.

From the WSJ:

Quote:

Mr. Obama repeatedly lost patience with the speaker as negotiations faltered. In an Oval Office meeting last week, he told Mr. Boehner that if the sides didn’t reach agreement, he would use his inaugural address and his State of the Union speech to tell the country the Republicans were at fault.
At one point, according to notes taken by a participant, Mr. Boehner told the president, “I put $800 billion [in tax revenue] on the table. What do I get for that?”

“You get nothing,” the president said. “I get that for free.”

Adder 12-22-2012 02:42 PM

Re: a background check before watching Comedy Central, and a limit of 1 per month
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 475794)

Always get our opinions on violence from someone who does not know that violent crime is currently near historic lows.

Hank Chinaski 12-22-2012 02:56 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 475796)
From the WSJ:

the most intelligent thing you've ever said here was when you noted that every house R now is in a pretty safe R seat. their voters already know who to blame.

LessinSF 12-27-2012 07:23 PM

Re: Pepper sprayed for public safety.
 
Good on Rand Paul. He lost 79-12, but he was: (1) right; and (2) inspired by Jsutices Brennan, Marshall and Sotomayor.


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